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13 comments
I do agree he is a very interesting character, making him a companion would probably have been a good idea, that way they could have fleshed him out a bit more and maybe won me over to his side.
I will say that Beth' really should have allowed to you confront him for the FEV research he did, have him justify it or explain what happened better because so far we just have to make assumptions about his morals and reasoning. its just lazy writing on their part. Its left do us to fill in the blanks.
Of course this whole debate shows that by leaving it more open and vague how different people can view the "same" situation - which is pretty cool really.
Its a game of course, I'll get over it :p
I could at least understand the RR. They are an actual group that is part of power struggle and they choose to participate directly. They also support protecting Synths and are high profile. While I also consider it murder (since really the Synths they protect are by large doing no harm) I can see the BOS attacking them. Nor does the game give you any way out of it.
But Virgil ...
*shakes head and walks away*
He willingly experimented on humans with FEV, which, quite frankly, is grotesque. He could have refused to do the work, but no he was too affraid to lose his position and power in the institute. Just because his conscience finally caught up with him and he forcefully ended the program; that doesn't negate all the pain and suffering he inflicted on his victims.
His only reason for helping you gain entry to the institute is to find his cure, to save himself, he is desperate to live and be human again. If he knew that cure didn't exist he would not have helped willingly as despite what he did to stop the FEV program he is still loyal to the institute. He doesn't hate them, his friends and family are there.
It was mainly Jon's decision to kill him and not cure him. Josh was somewhat undecided due to his own links to the institute but ultimatley decided to carry out his orders. Hopefully that helps you understand the decision.
I think Virgil is an interesting character, but I don't see him as good. More selfish and cowardly. Its really interesting how different we view him.
He gave up his title, his prestige, his comfy life at the Institute, his friends, he gave up everything because he realized what he was doing was wrong. He fled the INST knowing they would come to kill him and send Kellog after him. He expected Kellog would find him and probably kill him - he expresses that when you first meet him.
He turned himself into a monster to escape - to live in a hole in the glowing sea as fugitive and lost it all because he knew experimenting on people was wrong. That is not the act of a coward - to me that is the act of someone who is afraid but does what is right, in the end, and gives it all up. He is selfish to some degree but no more than most people I think and he did give up his home and safety in the end regardless. That takes bravery of a different sort - especially when he was not raised in an environment as brutal as the wasteland.
In other words a selfish coward would not give all that up and put his life into jeopardy unless he truly felt what he was doing was wrong. Should he have actively pursued the INST himself to try and stop them? Probably but he also knew how powerful they were and perhaps he thought it was hopeless so he fled. I also suspect he would have a hard time fighting those at the INST he saw as friends - much like Danse would never fight the BOS.
Most likely he grew up in the INST and that is all he really knew. Raised to think they were better than those above ground yet at the same time looking for a way to help them - to cure the FEV. The methods were wrong and he finally realized that, however, and stopped.
Of course he wants his serum but he also expresses sympathy for the LS and hopes they find what they are looking for. In the end he is a man alone who has repented and so to shoot him in cold blood because of his past deeds even though he had changed seems just vengeful and bad.
He also would see the INST still as family as that was his entire life - what he knew. He left them but would not want to see them all killed. I see correlations to other characters. While Danse is pretty much a good guy he was also cast out by his family and yet remained loyal to them in spite of that.
MacCready was a hired gun, even a gunner, and he also seems to have repented - he wants to be a better person and you discover as you get to know him he has a streak of goodness in him that can be brought out. I would not kill him because of his past deeds and all the lives he took.
Or the Mechanist, yet another variation, who was responsible for probably hundreds of deaths. Yet she was horrified to find that out and repented. You can also kill her for the blood on her hands.
Yet in the end what would it achieve, killing these people - Danse, Mechanist, Virgil, MacCready - for past deeds that they have given up? What does it solve? What good does it actually do since they, for the most part, have repented. Even Danse changes somewhat in his view of Synths. How does killing any of them make the world a better place when they might actually use what is left of their lives to actually work towards doing good?
In particular Virgil and the Mechanist - both responsible for suffering - one knowingly one not knowing - but both realizing it was wrong. It seems a waste of life to me. Perhaps Virgil would use his knowledge for good. Stuck on the surface maybe he would use his medical background to help others if he had the chance.
Instead a person who repented and tried to make it right in some way is not given that second chance.
I guess that is how I saw it.
Of course all that being said I also know if you don't get the serum and destroy the INST, that he will attack you (Virgil). Course to him you betrayed his trust and broke your promise and destroyed his home and friends, even if he can no longer return to it.
There is also no guarantee he would actively strive to do good in the world and would be selfish and seek his own self-interest in the world. Repenting only by stopping what he knew was wrong but not making any effort to actually atone for his past misdeeds. In that case killing him seems less bad and more an act of cold justice.
Story wise if Mac had really wanted to kill him Fenn would have let him ... albeit that is all just RP in the story. Fenn isn't like Preston or Piper - very sweet and all noble - but he also isn't a cold killer and thought it was worth giving Virgil another chance. Mac was tempted to leave him as a monster - to suffer like he had made others suffer - but in the end they decided to give him another chance.
Two sides of the same coin I guess. I just looked at it the other way. Perhaps if Virgil had killed people Fenn had been close to he would have exacted revenge regardless of him repenting.
I just never really pursued thinking about Virgil in the negative light that you did so hadn't really thought about it - I always saw him as I described above. So the shots of killing him took me by surprise as a rather dark deed.
But I guess it could be argued it was justified from a certain viewpoint and so my initial reaction was too harsh.
Should Virgil have fled to the RR or found a BOS recon team to offer his services to - to actively fight against the INST? Or is that too much to expect of any person in some ways? It makes me think of the Civil War in the US where family fought family. Perhaps he couldn't bring himself to actively fight, to kill, those he grew up with so he instead fled. Selfish? Perhaps but I am not so sure it is that black and white.
I don't see all at the INST as bad even if I think they needed to be stopped because as an organization their methods were abhorrent. Yet it wasn't a total BW situation which is why I let any who wanted to escape do so when I took them down.
That being said the big question to me, in the end, is something we don't know - would later on Virgil try to atone by helping those in the Wasteland after the INST is destroyed and the dust settles. Or would he pursue his own interests and be selfish in that he only cared about soothing his own conscience versus actually making amends? I guess that is where making a choice of past justice or giving a second chance comes in.
I just want to hit on a few points you made. First, I agree not everything is black and white in the wasteland there is a grey area when it come to morality and right / wrong.
You made correlations between a few ppl and Virgil and I just want to get into that.
Lets start with The Mechanist, the difference between her and Virgil is that The Mechanist's intentions were always good, she didn't intend for her machines to hurt ppl and the moment she realised what was happening she saw sense, put a stop to it and offered to help stop the other robots out there. Her only crime is ignorance and a sever lack of oversight, so no she did not deserve death despite being responsible for 100s of deaths.
Now Maccready, he is obviously a merc who has taken on some pretty dodgy contracts over the years I would even say he is probably responsible for killing a few innocent ppl due to his mercenary work and his time with the Gunners. BUT! And there is a big but, his circumstances are completely different to Virgil's. He grew up in the Capital Wasteland, a very hash environment, at the age of 16 he was threw out of the place he had called home, the only life he knew and he had to find a way to survive in this world that wants to kill him. So I can see and understand how he fell in with a bad crowd and ended up becoming a Merc. Virgil on the other hand grew up in a place where he was safe and looked after, he was educated and didn't have to fight to survive. And he still became a cold blooded killer.
You have to remember Mac was only 16 when he started his life as a Merc, he was young and looking for a way to survive, Virgil was a fully grown well educated man when he was given the job of testing the effects of FEV on humans, he knew exactly what he was getting into and did it anyway. On last point about Mac, as he grew older and more mature he realised what he was doing was wrong and that he could do better and that's why he left the Gunners.
In terms of whether Virgil would have tried to atone for his actions later on. I personally don't think he would have. I believe he wanted to cure himself and then serve his own interests in the 'wealth, or maybe he would have moved to Capital Wasteland. Either way I don't think he would have moved on to do any good.
I am aware of the differences though and I had hesitated mentioning the other people for just that reason. I tried to prevent the point getting skewed when I wrote, "Yet another variation" and "In particular Virgil and the Mechanist - both responsible for suffering - one knowingly one not knowing" to indicate I knew they all had different backgrounds and situations. The point I was trying to make was a more simple one - that people sometimes want a second chance regardless of the previous circumstances.
I the end you have one person who did bad to survive, one who did bad thinking they were actually doing good, and one who did bad knowingly but felt the end justified the means.
It is easier to give someone a second chance when they have a reason for doing bad you can connect to. It is harder when someone has a life of privilege and knowingly did wrong before finally understanding the end didn't justify what they were doing. In some ways Virgil is still a victim of his circumstance though - as the INST life was all he knew.
But if I continue I will just repeat myself. Mainly pointing out I had already aware of the differences but felt I had already written too much as it was.
In the end I think it just comes down to you seeing more bad in Virgil than good and felt he should pay for his crimes as there was little chance of him ever atoning. I saw more potential for good in him and decided to give him a second chance. That being said having thought about it a lot more I no longer see him as good as I first did - so you have persuaded me to change my view somewhat. Not enough to kill him though as I still believe he is worth saving. Its just a harder choice now.
On a side note I suspect when I made this choice with Wolf (who was the only character to do a play through with the BOS - which I deleted as I felt so dirty afterwards) had grown to really dislike Kells and Maxon near the end and so was predisposed to saving Virgil if only to give the middle finger to Kells and Maxon in a way.
I also think the BOS would be hypocrites in the case of getting Virgil the serum. Wolf told Kells that Virgil was no longer a super mutant and hence there was no reason to kill him. Kells agreed saying they would just keep a watch on him. I would bet all my caps that if Virigl approached them and agreed to work for them (just like the other INST scientist did) they would be more than happy to accept him. Not out of the goodness of their hearts but their greed for power and technology.
Fenn never actually had any reason to kill Virigil which I think also had me somewhat viewing him in a more positive light. Fenn never went far enough with the BOS to reach that point as he always worked for the MM. He had plans on convincing Virgil to open up a hospital in the Commonwealth and contributing his knowledge in a positive way. Hence killing him would have just been a waste. I don't see why Virgil would pass that up either considering all he had was some cave in the glowing sea ... and was human again.
He does have some desire to help others even if his own selfish interest in research is probably his driving force. But from what I got out of his tapes and conversations the goal was to help make the world a safer place and find a cure for FEV.
PS - I also think personality and motivation also come into play. I tend to try and see the good in others and like to give a second chance (but no third chances period). I also don't like to waste a life if I think someone sees the error of their ways.
Yet I can also be selfish and since what Virgil did didn't directly affect my character I had less anger towards him. If Virgil had killed my brother, or had kidnapped and tortured Mac AFTER Fenn had fallen in love with him ... then there would be no second chance for Virgil as then it would have been revenge. Course that path would lead Fenn down a road that would leave him little better than the ones he is killing. Perhaps Mac saw that and that is why he let Virgil live as well, even if he wasn't that happy about it.
Your previous points bout him giving up his cushy life in the Institute made me re-think the whole "he's a coward" thing as well. You made a good point there.
I will say that I am all for second chances when the person's crime is something that I can understand, something I could, as you said, relate to on some level. I think that's probably why I find it more difficult to like him or even give him another chance. That's something I should think about when RP'ing. Although I do think killing Virgil is within character for Josh and Jon, more so Jon cos he will pretty much follow orders given to him by BoS without question, its one of his biggest flaws and Josh was torn about it. Jon convinced him by reminding him of the FEV research Virgil carried out for the Institute.
Josh is also pretty dis-enfranchised with BoS at the moment, they've had him do some pretty questionable stuff. Danse, The Railroad and now Virgil. Its keeping him awake at night, hence the final shot.
I have really liked this discussion so far