Drawing a line under recent events and moving on
I have had to remind myself that I had the privilege of having a bit of forewarning about this happening; I had time to go through all the mental states, think of lots of the permutations and think of all the different arguments for and against the system, so when the announcement came, the shock for me was not knowing when it would happen or how they would do it, rather than not knowing it would happen at all.
I want to begin to draw a line under this ordeal. This does not mean I want to forget it ever happened or think that this won't crop up again in the not too distant future. It will. Of course it will. But life on the Nexus must go on, and in order for us to move forward we need to stop talking about the events of the past week so much and continue on where we left off before this all started while trying to pick up the broken pieces in our community.
Ironically (I know), before I sign off on the topic for now, I have taken part in two articles in the public media over the past week. It is my intention to do no more news articles or interviews in the media about this topic unless some new developments occur. I have already respectfully refused to do a few because of this. Of the two articles I took part in, one was a Q&A with Rock, Paper, Shotgun, the other was a close to 2 hour discussion with TotalBiscuit and Brumbek, author of SMIM . You can find that interview on Youtube now, and it should be on TotalBiscuit's SoundCloud by the end of the day. The former gives you some insight in to my take on things, and the latter is a very off-the-cuff conversation between the three of us. And a conversation is all it is. It is not a debate, it's not an attempt at an unbiased news article approaching the situation from every angle and it doesn't cover or intend to cover all the angles of this situation. But if you're interested in hearing a few opinions on a few different aspects of the topic, or if you want to hear my voice coming through an £8 Logitech desktop microphone I bought 10 years ago because I hate using headset microphones, then you might be interested.
I will say that, since finding out about this development a month ago, and since the actual launch of it last week, my opinions and views have been swayed massively during this time. I've read some excellent points from mod users, mod authors and game developers and I've read a lot of really, really dumb points too. But the point is, there are some excellent points and arguments to be made from all angles in this topic and, if you're anything like me, you want to try and see it from every angle and come to your own conclusions from as enlightened a perspective as possible. I might look back on what I have said in a day, a week, a month, a year or a decade and think "Heck, I got it wrong there!" or "Nah, I don't agree with that any more". For me, it's not about having principles and stubbornly sticking to them as much as it is approaching the situation with an open mind with the willingness to have my opinion changed by well thought out and reasonable critique. I encourage all of you to try and do the same, no matter what your view on the topic is.
On the topic of donations
The paid modding fiasco has put a spotlight on donations for mod authors. Of course, we've had a donate button on the sites since 2012 but many have said it isn't prominent enough and many didn't even realise we had one.
I like the idea of a donation system and I don't have a problem with a more prominent donation system. What I don't want is a site littered with adfly links, advertisements/demands for donations from mod authors and desperate begging for money. We need to find a system that is tasteful, not insulting to the senses, universal, yet still effective.
Many have brought up payment platforms like Patreon and Flattr. I would love to integrate these platforms, especially if they have a decent API where we can plug it seamlessly into the sites and make it look nice. Unfortunately that's not my choice to make. Legally, and for my piece of mind, this needs to be run by Bethesda to ensure they're OK with the idea. I am aware that at least one mod author is talking with representatives of Bethesda right now on this topic and we will wait to see what they have to say. If they give the go ahead for Patreon then we'll begin work on integrating it however we can. If they say they're not OK with it, we won't.
Change isn't going to come over night and I'm not going to rush out lots of big sweeping changes straight away. If you're a mod author with thoughts on this then you should go to the private mod author forums (a part of our main forums) to make your thoughts known with all the others discussing it. But in the mean-time our rules are the same as they always have been on donations. You can't charge money for your mods, specifically ask for or talk about donations in your descriptions/images/file comments and you can't solicit or advertise other products or services (like adfly links, or a few G2A links I saw crop up recently).
We're in the process of reviewing all the information being given to us on donations, at which point I'm sure some changes will be made, but in the mean-time it's business as usual.
The community manager position
I publicised a paid job opening on the sites a few months ago for a full-time community manager role. A few weeks back we took the listing down as we'd had over 300 applications, some of which were absolutely fantastic. I've read every single application and have created a "short" list of 30 names that I was in the process of whittling that down to a smaller number still when this fiasco hit, which has since taken all of my time.
I know, now more than ever, I really need this role to be filled, but the application process is taking a long time. I'm obviously taking it very seriously and analysing all the candidates for suitability. Because there are many, many really good fits who have applied already I will be sending out emails to people on the "short short" list in the not too distant future to get them to answer a few questions.
I wanted to update you all that the role has not been filled yet, I haven't sent out any emails, and the process is still on-going. And a big thank you to those of you who applied (and a big "what the heck, guys?" to those of you who sent in an application without telling me what your Nexus username is in your application...duh!!!).
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A moderator has closed this comment topic for the time beingBy the way please make a mobile nexusmods page, to usw the desktop Version o mobile is ugly like falmer.
In real life anything you would pay $1 for would be considered a throwaway disposable low risk purchase. Why should mods be any different? If I buy something for $1 and it turns out to not be what I wanted, or it breaks, I'm not going to take it back for a refund, more likely I just throw it away.
For paid modding to work, one of the things that will have to change is the way people think about mods.
Another thing, heard that Bethesda and Valve makes dealing with excellent modders to implement the paid mods on Steam like Isoku, SkyUI Team, Chesko, and others (Probably? I don't know). So if Bethesda know enough about the potential modders that mod-users like, of course they've decided that these are the guys that will profit most for Bethesda and Gaben. BUT, if they've known enough about these guys, that means Bethesda already explore the heart of modding communities to know what is really going on in Skyrim modding process.
What I'm getting is this, these are the modders that probably know the problems of Skyrim modding. Some of the problems are conflicting mods and broken mods that can break Skyrim, and yeah, Bethesda probably suppose to know this as well, (they've already stated themselves that every mod implemented or remove must make a new game every time) if they even bother to contact them privately about this. What? They think the modding community are just casuals that only want to buy certain mods and get on with it? Even mod users with low end PC want to reach the 255 mod limits or beyond if they could, and the problem with buying mods for a game like Skyrim are indeed the conflict and broken state. Skyrim will be considered broken with mods, and fixing mods are the only solution instead of Bethesda's patches, but my God, imagine if fixing mods decided that they want to charge money as well. (You think they don't deserve this? They are the one who fix the broken game instead of Bethesda, but who is fine enough to pay something that Bethesda should've done themselves?)
Skyrim is a volatile game that got hurt more as the mods being implemented and removed, making paid mods are rather silly for a game on this kind of state, and Bethesda want to make sure the mods need to be paid? With the risk of broken the game itself? I don't know if people actually generous enough like they stated they are, in which I doubt it, that they will pay the mods no matter what, to help the modders. So you don't really care about the risk of incompability and broken state of Skyrim? But I guess you're that kind, like you state that you are?
Hey, good mods are good mods, but only if we actually use it, no preview or all that. After you are satisfied with the mods, are the time when you feel it's worth the money. So donate it as much as they've deserve it, but too bad some people isn't keen on donating but like to pay the mods for some reason. You don't know deserving mods after you try it, so why would I want to pay for some that could've been terrible. I'm pretty baffled on the people that think paid mods are a good idea for a game like Skyrim after all that, and the problem is you haven't feel the longer effect of this business plan, so you wouldn't even know the problems it could create. To bad Bethesda already pull it off before it learns to fly, huh? Mods aren't early access which is a game of its own, not something that is implemented that could risk the state of the base game. Why would I want to pay something that could risk Skyrim?
It's like Bethesda already know the community, but decided to make one fell swoop of sudden strike to free modding community. Yo, look at that, Wet and Cold is free on the Nexus but turns out the new version will be considered premium exclusively for the Steam Workshop, and you have to pay for it. Heard that Steam is incompatible with mod managers. If that is true, then there's add another problem. Wouldn't it be great if we could have all the mods compatible with each other even if we paid for, but it's not that simple isn't it?
Yes, I do agree that modders deserve to be paid for their work. Hell, all of the modders other than Skyrim modders need to be rewarded for their work, but only good modders, not terrible modders and scamming modders, of course. People doesn't seem to keen on the ideas on donating, but like to pay the mods that the modders only got thirty percent, guess they want to pay Bethesda and Valve as well, I suppose. The people who want free mods will either screw paid mods or pirated the paid mods. So where's the money on that? It was free for a long time and all of a sudden you have to pay for it like a DLC, usually conflicting or broken DLC. Can't expect people to be empathic enough to help modders paid for their hard work, in which they only get half of money anyway. There are too many reasons why Bethesda remove paid mods so early, usually on the reasons that are not good for their own circumstances.
IF Bethesda want to help the community, I already state this and I will state it again, Bethesda should be the one to pay the modders, not the customers who already purchase their product. If Bohemia Interactive able to give ten thousands prize money to modders, why can't Bethesda? Despite Bohemia Interactive getting criticized for producing expensive DLC, they're the only one who awarded the modders, even if Bohemia isn't actually richest AAA publisher. If Bethesda want to help them more, how about hiring them? If modders ain't capable enough to move to Maryland, then let them work remotely.
It's like Bethesda wanted to screw the modding community, and make sure that everyone start to go their own way and oppose each other. Trying to become a game company that is hated by its own fans. While also, to create a more hostile relation between modders and mod users. It's like every game company want to reach the top as the evil company in the world. What's going on here?
Total Biscuit's interview can be summed up with I question....
How could they Be so WRONG about their own Market?...
The idea that they were trying to create turmoil explains it far better than the idea that they were making stupid decisions. Now I know people HAVE and will again say, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." ...pay attention to the adverb "ADEQUATELY"
In order to apply Hanlon's Razor to Valve's benefit one has to believe that their business decision was Malicious instead of simply Business. In addition, you have to believe that Valve is managed by Ignorant people... So let's stipulate that Valve is NEITHER malicious NOR ignorant...
Using Occam's Razor...the simpler explanation prevails. Even if the program had been allowed to continue, there would still be animosity within the community .
So yeah , I think if anyone should be paying someone its Betheseda . For a Thank you for keeping our Games alive just out of love for our work . Thank you for Supporting us by making stuff we didn't have time to make , for Fix we didn't have time to make..etc .
And I honestly personally think it is a bad idea . (not the modder shouldn't be rewarded for their hard work) , but to change a fan of a mod to a customers .
A fan will be kind and tolerant and patient if anything doesn't work with a Mod . A paying customer often will feel cose he is paying , he is entitled to be served first and there is no 'wait till I get around it busy with real life' ..
I think it be a great Loss . If the fan become a customer and I wouldn't wish the headech on anyone .
That said , they should (Valve and who else is involved) find way to I don't know...advertise modders hard work somehow .
I haven't weighed in much on this whole topic due to the vitriol level, but this ^^ - this kind of project I would happily support. I can't afford much but what I could give I'd do so happily.
On a somewhat orthogonal sidenote, another solution I'd really like to see, and has been mentioned in a couple of different ways, is the idea of _Valve and Bethesda_ compensating modders. I doubt seriously either of their bottom lines are hurting, and above and beyond that it'd be, IMHO, a stellar _investment_ on their parts. I'm not sure what the mechanism should be for choosing given mods, or determining compensation, should be, but neither do I believe those are remotely insurmountable obstacles. If nothing else some sort of submission and voting (with sensible oversight, of course) could be set up to choose candidates, at least.
Dunno if anyone will get this, but I now have this image of Frank Underwood sitting at the big desk, holding all his calls, making mods...
- OR -
The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.
An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.
"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.
"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.
"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.
Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.
It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.
If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.
Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.
The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).
But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.
So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.
But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..
If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.
Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.
What do you guys think of a system like this?
<kink removed>
I think you were told not to post it in another thread AND in pm so you can say goodbye to your account. - Micalov.
The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.
Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?
@Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!
Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)
Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?
A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?
I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.
I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.
I'm not sure how that fits into your example.
Here's another example to show my perspective:
You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.
That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.
@wulfharth,
So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?
I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.
This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.
I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.
The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.
When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.
Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.
Wulfharth, take a look here:
https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/
That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?
Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.
And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....
The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.
You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.
I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.
You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.
I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.
5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....
First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.
People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!
Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.
With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...
So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.
Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?
Wulfharth,
Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".
When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.
In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.
The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.
I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.
And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.
Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.
I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.
Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.
The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.
Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...
What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .
I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did.
In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.
I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...
That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".
Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.
I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.
I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.
All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.
If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.
And that will work just fine...until it grows to the point that those who own the rights to the Game...decide the assets being generated, exceed the cost to litigate...
Robin/NEXUS has 9 million users. He has to go 'hat in hand' to Bethesda because his potential to take significant revenue is VERY REAL...Bethesda would Stomp a MUDHOLE in his ASS if there was ever a sense that NEXUS was anything but a BENEFIT to them.
Ask Zenimax/Bethesda how well that worked out for them when they went after the oculus rift kickstarter. They got their little butts polished. In America the worker has plenty of rights. A company can't just take your work. They will try though. If anything, they can ask for a cut or buy the rights. That's about it. seeing as they violated their own EULA, it wouldn't be useful in court.
Vesuvius- you can donate to Skywind. They need to pay a lot in hosting fees. I gave them $50 a few months back. Go check out what they're working on. It's impressive.
I've heard this said before and I don't understand it completely...If the owner of the property amends their EULA for their purposes, that doesn't void their rights does it? If they subsequently terminate the the action that amended the EULA, they still retain rights do they not?
I just don't see how they violated any agreement...the EULA is not an agreement to themselves.
EDIT:
I read up on Oculus Rift .. Luckey had established a pre-existing body of work. It amounted to a product that really needed only aesthetic changes and backing to market...Zenimax's claim was capricious and foolhardy, but it may have been an attempt to do more than just cash in on the Facebook investment... However the decision came about the result was an epic fail.
It may point to greed...or POOR business decision making, but the arguement that Zenimax only brought suit when "Deep Pocket" emerged, is an irony since MOST suits are brought because there is money being lost or money to be gained.
Agreements work in both directions. They can't say, "You can't own mods, so you can't sell them." Then say,"We changed our mind. You can sell them." Then say,"No let's go back to the first standard." After amending it once, they would have had to reissue a new EULA, and everyone would have had to click agree. They threw away their own contract so the doors are now wide open.
Of course it doesn't matter. Donations that go to individuals to compensate them for their time and effort aren't profits. They can try to sue for 0% profit, but that would be silly. Additionally, if I make a model in 3ds max, sculpt it in ZBrush, and composite my textures in Photoshop, they would have to compensate me for all three programs before laying claim to that model. That software is very expensive.
@wulfharth
Congratulations on your dev job. But really, is it necessary to gloat that you are no longer part of the community? It just seems rather odd to me that you would go through the effort for a community that you claim to be divesting from.
I'm of the opinion that getting a developer job is never a bad move.
Eventually this fight will die down and we can all be friends again, and go back to talking about skyrim.
Even if I became the president, I'd still make mods. It's my greatest joy. And I'm sure I'd dive into every fight making a fool of myself. That's part of the fun.
the number 1 being support, if you pay for something you're waiting for something delivered that works
given how complicated mod support can be (in Skyrim at the very least).
I don't think it's a good idea for this very reason.
The only exception would be mods that have nearly zero support (consists of just textures & meshes)
Scripting heavy mods would be potentially a source of huge issues
And what about the tools ? should TES5Edit or Mod Organizer be paid for ?
that would be a huge step backward to make such readily available tools that are clearly nearly impossible to bypass to make a stable mod install ... (unless again you just go for simple mods)
and what about the bug fixing unofficial official patches ?
I'm not even saying : "ho look some would pay for the bug fixing and the others would be stuck with their bugs"
no it goes way beyond that. When you look at the bigger picture on a statistic scale, what makes the unofficial patches so good & successful is that they are nearly universal, if they were nomore it would become a huge mess for all the other mod authors.
that is : automatic updating midgame
which can be troublesome for script or quest mods
so before going Pay4Mod (on skyrim at least), steamworkshop needs to improve the way it delivers mods by giving more control to mod makers & mod users.
Was it Bethesda that instigated this , that doesn't make sense to me , it would be Bethesda that would be getting the backlash in loss of direct sales of any future titles , while its Valve that has had to deal with the consequences of modding on their Steam platform . Would seem to be they would have a greater interest in seeing paid mods as they are the ones incurring the cost of having to manage them . Albeit as poorly as they do it still must be costing them something.
Also I have to call BS on something that people have been saying . This Skyrim PC sales account for only 14% of sales . That number was released 2 days after launch , the numbers were Xbox 360 59% , PS3 27% and PC 14% , thats exactly the same number they report for Skyrim sales almost 4 years after its release ,thats a statistical impossibility that they would remain exactly the same . Numbers always change over time . Plus its interesting to note that Valve will not publish digital PC sales of Skyrim on their Steam platform but will publish Xbox and Playstation . So dont be buying the 14% BS.
"http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/"
It's obviously a bit of a PR piece but it is the closest we have to what Bethesda's reasoning was, outside of rampant speculation all over the internet.
These links up ahead is what people get to see when reading this topic on the forums side. It's an internal means to re-create the interconnection between posts in a reply chain like you can see on the file sites, while on the forums side you don't even have the option to "reply".
It is not intended to be visible on the file sites like it is now, but that's what happens when someone replies to a post in a reply chain from the forums side, as this will create a new post out of context and just "quote" the old one. Said quote makes these otherwise hidden links on top also visible on the file sites then.
(That's why I'm always exclusively replying to posts in a news topic from the file sites. 'Replying' to them from the forums side kills the structuring and the reply chains.)
The sales stats come from the following website that cites Bethesda as their source. The stats were last updated April 12th, 2015.
Skyrim Sales StatisticsData
Skyrim units sold in the first 48 hours3,500,000
Skyrim units sold in the first week release7,000,000
Skyrim sales in the first week of release$450,000,000
Total Skyrim units sold23,270,000
Total Skyrim sales revenue$1,390,000,000
Average user review rating92 / 100
Highest number of concurrent players on Steam320,000
Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 36059 %
Playstation 327 %
PC14 %
Skyrim Load Times
Average XBox load time48 seconds
Average Playstation 3 load time34 seconds
Skyrim Development Statistics
Number of years it took to develope Skyrim3.5 years
Skryim development and marketing budget$85 Million
Number of game developers employed90
Number of actors employed for character voice overs83
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is an action role-playing open world video game developed by Bethesda Game Studios and published by Bethesda Softworks. It is the fifth installment in The Elder Scrolls action role-playing video game series, following The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Skyrim was released on November 11, 2011 for Microsoft Windows, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/
If you disagree with these statistics PLEASE indicate why you disagree with them and direct me to a more accurate source. If I'm wrong I want to know.
People seem to be more willing to state their feelings on statistics rather than look up new statistics. We are on the internet.
Based on news articles published in January 2014, Bethesda passed the 20 million unit milestone for sales on all platforms.
http://gamerant.com/skyrim-sells-20-million/
Unfortunately, the 14% estimate for PC sales comes from statistical estimates from within the first few days of launch. Since Valve doesn't publicly release their number of sales for games, we have to estimate it. Using web crawlers, the following estimated in April 2014 that Skyrim sold 5.94 million copies on PC: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/15/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/
Since the two figures were taken near the same time and since this was only a year ago, this seems like a reasonable current estimate. Doing some math, we get that PC sales account for 30% of Skyrim sales, not 14%.
Assuming that
http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/
is correct on Skyrim's total sales, we would then estimate that there are about 7 million PC sales. Since Skyrim HD alone has about 7.4 million unique downloads, it's reasonable to believe that almost all PC users are mod users.
Thank You. Now that the more reasonable number is available, will the Novelists continue. Of course they will. Kinda like the Congressional hearings on Cigarettes, even when faced with the truth...some continued to toe the line.
"Can I wave my hand at you and say "these are the statistics you're looking for"?
No, my mind is way too strong for that.
Can I make a completely transparent sophistic plea to your ego and have you believe whatever you "feel" to be correct?
Peace.
"I'm going to throw some alternative statistical estimates out there...
Based on news articles published in January 2014, Bethesda passed the 20 million unit milestone for sales on all platforms.
http://gamerant.com/skyrim-sells-20-million/"
The above article cites the below article for the Skyrim statistic.
Jan. 27, 2014
http://time.com/1875/at-20-million-copies-sold-skyrim-is-in-the-top-20-bestselling-games-of-all-time/
Which cites the original at
January 23, 2014 on
http://www.bethblog.com/2014/01/23/the-elder-scrolls-online-voice-cast-revealed/
"Unfortunately, the 14% estimate for PC sales comes from statistical estimates from within the first few days of launch."
It is research dated April 12th, 2015.
Statistic Verification
Source: Bethesda Game Studios, Steam, Zenimax
Research Date: April 12th, 2015
"Since Valve doesn't publicly release their number of sales for games, we have to estimate it."
The source for the above data is reported to be Bethesda, Steam, and Zenimax. Let me reiterate that one of the sources of data was STEAM.
"Using web crawlers, the following estimated in April 2014 that Skyrim sold 5.94 million copies on PC: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/15/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/
Since the two figures were taken near the same time and since this was only a year ago, this seems like a reasonable current estimate. Doing some math, we get that PC sales account for 30% of Skyrim sales, not 14%.
Assuming that
http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/"
is correct on Skyrim's total sales, we would then estimate that there are about 7 million PC sales. Since Skyrim HD alone has about 7.4 million unique downloads, it's reasonable to believe that almost all PC users are mod users."
Given that one of the sources of the original 14% statistics researched on April 15, 205 was Steam you would have to come to the conclusion that Steam somehow doesn't know how many units of Skyrim they have sold. Seems unlikely.
Depending upon how they programmed the web crawler they could have counted Skyrim related files incorrectly as the Skyrim game. I don't know how accurate they are. I do know that they are journalists and don't pretend to be otherwise. If they are correct then the total PC sales are much higher than 5.7 million as this only counts those sold through Valve. In this case the total PC users is much higher than 30%... and would contradict all other sets of data I have been able to find by a HUGE margin. My point is that either every other source of data on PC units sold for the last few years, including both Bethesda and Steam, or perhaps total sales as well, are way off OR Ars estimate is. I suspect I know which option you will chose but as for me I’ll follow the data and Occam's razor.
What I do know is that it is statistically invalid to use stats derived from different data sets and piecemeal cobble them together. It is invalid to say that I will use a total of PC units sold from one source, ars, and ignore the PC units sold from another source, statbrain, while still using the total from the other source, statbrain. If statbrains data set and statistical analysis says that only 14% of units sold were on the PC and the total units sold was 23,270,000 then 14% of 23,270,000 or 3,257,800 even if it is wrong. It is not valid to pick the highest percent estimate of PC sales from one data set and ignore it's totals and then combine it with the highest total sales from another data set while ignoring it’s PC estimates.
Peace.
Allow me to explain somethings to you (from someone who does do statistics btw). First, Statistics Brain doesn't explain their methodology; that is often a sign that the statistics are crap. Second, if it is an estimate, it is a statistic; if it actually counts up total number of sales, it's a parameter. Statistics Brain provides STATISTICAL verification, i.e. the company turns over their partial data and Statistics Brain says "Yes, you did your math correctly." It does not say what the actual values are because the companies themselves do not know. The problem is we don't know when the data (from Bethesda, Zenimax, and Steam) was collected. All that article is saying is that based upon the most recent numbers those companies presented Statistics Brain, those were the numbers they crunched. Bethesda and Steam gave them crap data, Statistics Brain came up with crap numbers. They may have done math in April 2015, but me thinks some of the data was from November 2011.
Okay, now let me break some numbers down for you: the 59% XBox 360, 27% PS3, and 14% PC spread was determined from data collected by Bethesda and Steam a few days after launch. If that is the data they turned over for their estimates, Statistics Brain would calculate out the same statistics. The total number of sales is actually also an estimate; Bethesda estimates it based upon how many units they've sold to stores. If you take about 20 million units sold to stores (the last published sales figures from Bethesda) as the total number of Xbox 360 and PS3 sales and estimate the Steam sales using the 14%, then low and behold you get about 23,260,000 or so estimate for total sales. I know, your mind is blown! What I'm trying to tell you is that the Statistics Brain article is pretty likely based upon crap data and is not accurate.
The arstechnica study firstly explains their research methodology (always a good thing). Nothing in their article suggests a bias of any sort, so their statistic seems somewhat valid. Here is another site that follows the same kind of webcrawler methodology to estimate Steam sales:
http://steamspy.com/
Their estimate for PC sales is even higher: 10,216,018 ± 80,994. They gave their answer with a confidence interval and explained their methodology, so guess what? Their statistic is even more credible. How credible? 95% credible
Btw, it doesn't seem like Steam saves their sales parameters somewhere; they don't have a counter somewhere keeping track of individual purchases. They would have to use the same webcrawler method to estimate their number of sales. Or they could just turn over the numbers they already had to Statistics Brain that they counted at an earlier point in time.
Also, I knew using the Stat Brain total for my estimate was "bad." I just didn't have a better estimate. That's also why I tacked on "Assuming that...is correct" to my sentence. It was a conditional statement, so it's logically valid lol.
Oh and Occam's Razor violates all sorts of laws of deductive and inductive logic; it's better not to use it FYI. It's just a rule of thumb to help come up with hypotheses in science and is actually fairly meaningless. Sometimes it's misused with competing theories in science, but that's strictly speaking really just a matter of which one is more practical.
This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.
No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.
But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.
My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.
So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.
However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.
From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?
My final post:
Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.
My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.
Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.
I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.
I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'
Thanks for reading.
SNB
Link to discussion, please add your opinions:
http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/
Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?
It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.
So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.
While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.
I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.
While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.
My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.
Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".
but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then
see ya
I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.
I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.
I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.
1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at
If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.
If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.
You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.
What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "
It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.
My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.
Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.
I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"
I'm lovin' it
Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.
People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.
I need you cool...
...Are you cool?
I'm cool."
-Reservoir Dogs-
To other mod authors im sorry if i posted or said anything harmfull. i do believe you guys should make money. im just hoping not all the great mods go pay to have because that will be the end of free mods sites sooner or later asall the good mods will behind paywalls and soon even that will die as alot of people will just be done with skyrim as you noticed by the petition to free the mods.. Thats more people that that against so my thoughts on that.
@aegilitheugly haha i wanna know aswell so if im using them i remove them for good.. his name is now written down so i never download or pay for a mod from him-her-it
This is the internet. No matter what is 'said' to anyone, the anonymous nature of the internet promotes a sort of 'hear no evil see no evil' scenario unless a thing is in the here and now, excepting of course, people that actually put stock in the consequence-less titters of people that know darned well they are safe from reprisal so long as they attack through the ether, hold a grudge. Now, holding a grudge is your business although I will advise you that it is a soul-crushing way to look at life particularly in regards to something said online, and you can cherish any hurts you want to hold to your heart as long as you like. But please let's understand something. Assuming that what somebody says online is anything but spewed vitriol that has no forethought and no recognition that the narcissist element of the internet (me me me! ) is self-deception, is an exercise in futility. In other words: bullspit posted online is just that. We as a society put this strange and enormous emotional pricetag on the onlines. hell, people commit suicide over some online mumbo-jumbo, which is pretty out there. Always remember: words posted online are and always will only be words on a screen. They are almost always a bunch of hooey, especially when said in anger.
@LP1. Saying "mod users aren't as important as mod authors" is the same thing as saying "children aren't as important as adults". I've been playing Skyrim for about a year and modding Skyrim for......um.....about a month, maybe two. Yup, I'm what y'all call a "noob". So I fit in exactly that range of people you are, essentially, saying are useless, right? So, let me ask you......where did you start? Did you download Skyrim for the first time and immediately set out to modding it? Did you pop your modding cherry by creating Falskaar? I could very well be wrong here but I assume most mod authors started out as mod users first and became mod authors because the available mods weren't meeting their needs/wants so they learned how to make their own, yes? I mean, if a mod author started creating mods with the specific intention to make money from them......well.....isn't it kinda dumb to expect to be paid for making mods before you have the ability to charge for making mods? Yes, it's entirely possible you started creating mods for Skyrim before ever downloading a single mod for Skyrim......but you had to start somewhere, right? You had to be a mod user before being a mod author, regardless for what game, right?
So......as I said, I've only been on the Nexus for about a month, but I've already started learning how to use the Creation Kit and Nifskope and I've actually created a few mods, just playing around. At what point to I cease my uselessness? How much to I need to contribute before I am as important as you are?
The simple fact is, "leeches" (as you so eloquently put it) ARE important to this community because without "leeches", there would be nobody to become mod authors. Mod authors who don't see that as rampant arrogance are just fooling themselves.
It's funny how modders like you feel gloryfied, or you feel yourselves as gods, but the reality of the situation is, Bethesda only tolerates you because the amount of people around you. Yeah, that users you see as leeches. If this was a dozen of mod authors, Bethesda will slam you with their door a time ago. And they don't do that because of all of that users downlading, supporting and making a community of this mods.
Next time you talk about "leeches", think that in Bethesda there're people that make the entire game you're modding out of a scracht. With nothing but a idea come for a paper, and they're very proud of their job, and they're a bit, let's say "irritated" with the idea of a bunch of people -without any kind of timeline above their heads- coming and say "oh, this was a nice work, but I can add this here and made your work much better, showing how impolite it was in the first place".
Also, keep in mind, there're vocies saying "if this people, instead of realising directly to the public or creating communities will come to us in the first place, this will never happen. Our game will be much more stable and this whole situation will not existed".
Of course this is not going to be said by any PR. Also, not everyone in Bethesda think the same thing, but there is a lot of talk in some circles, and there're opinions in this manner. And keep that in mind, these people will shutdown you if they can. They can't because the users that are supporting and using your mods.
Become a Bard was a Steam exclusive for a very long time. In fact, it was the ONLY mod I ever downloaded from Steam Workshop. I was very appreciative and complimented the author's creativity and modding skills. Had I known that he was so totally unappreciative of praise or gratitude other than monetary compensation and/or blind support of the monetization of amateur modding, I would never have done so.
80% of Become a Bard's content is totally lore-unfriendly and non-immersive. It is a prime example of a mod that is neat, but certainly not neat enough to pay any amount of money for. Now, I realize that (AFAIK) Become a Bard was not offered for sale on Steam, but based upon the author's attitude and utter disregard for the people who have made his mod semi-famous, I have no doubts that it would have been.
So my message to Pevey, or LP1, or whatever is this; Without mod users, you are nothing. Without mod users, no one is downloading/installing/testing Become a Bard. Just because a user doesn't make his/her own mods doesn't lessen his/her contribution to this community. And guess what? There are more of us than you. LOTS more.
So, if greedy mod authors want to take your ball and go home because we won't pay you to alter values in the creation kit, then by all means, do so. PLEASE do so. You're modding for all the wrong reasons, and you're doing yourself a huge disservice by advocating for monetization of your amateur hobby, chastising users for standing up for themselves and for the heart of the community, and hiding your work out of protest and to "punish" users. You're not "punishing" anyone but yourselves. We can get by without you.
In fact, I'm currently running a mod-free playthrough of Skyrim. Not even SKYUI or SKSE. I'm running Vanilla Skyrim with Bethesda's official DLC. And you know what? It's terrific. Skyrim is an awesome game without a single mod (Game-of-the-Year on THREE different platforms, 2 of which don't even support modding). I haven't CTD one time. Not a single broken quest. No glitches. No framerate sputter everytime I look at tall grass. I haven't even had to activate the console. And unbelievably, It still looks great with 512 resolution textures.
Bottom line; if every single Skryim mod author took down all their mods today, it wouldn't affect me one bit. Yes, it would be unfortunate to be denied access to all that creativity and talent that was voluntarily and freely shared with the community. But the world wouldn't stop spinning. People would continue to play Skyrim, with or without mods.
All I know is that I've spent WAY too much of MY free time downloading/installing/testing/endorsing mods and providing feedback to mod authors like YOU, expressing my appreciation and thankfulness for your efforts the whole time, to be condescended and chastised by mod authors like YOU because I refuse to support your greed and your arrogant dismissal of mod users' necessity and importance in the modding community. People who helped make YOUR mod better than it would have ever been otherwise. People who made YOUR mod prominent enough to warrant Youtube reviews. People who chose to support you with encouragement, praise, thankfulness and (hitherto) respect instead of throwing money at you, which is all you and your ilk care about.
So it's a two-way street. Moving forward, I will think twice before downloading/installing/testing/endorsing mods created by petty mod authors who have spent the past 3 weeks condescending the entire community for not supporting monetization of amateur modding, and I will think thrice before I offer any sort of feedback/encouragement/praise to those individuals, because they've made it perfectly clear that feedback/encouragement/praise isn't good enough for them. So be it.
I realize you and your kind don't like me because of my viewpoint regarding this matter. Well, right back at you, Bucko. No one is forcing you to create/upload mods. And thankfully, no one is forcing me to use them.
I would think the only thing essential are the developers. Unless the mod author created the game then they themselves are leeches.
I would love a way to pay modders for their hard work. I spend a decent percentage of my income on gaming as it is. To buy a $1400 gaming PC and then turn around and refuse to pay for mods would be very shitty of me. Donating is not something I'm interested in, because when I pay for something, I want to receive something in return, just like I do with my Steam library or my record collection.
I'd say no offence intended (I'm probably going to get bashed for this anyway)
You could make an argument that its a co-operative effort if x person creates mods and y person created mods and then share them with each other cross fertilize and you may have a point, but that not modders primary motivation, at least not with those I know.