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I don't understand the question. Sneak Attack isn't an Assassin feature, and what does it have to with this mod? What this mod does is basically let you do as many attacks with both weapons when dual wielding when having extra attacks.
In base vanilla, dual wielding a dagger allow the player to attack twice in place of a standard attack when using the assassin melee action that require an advantage. I want to know if this mod replicate that, or simply provide a base offhand attack.
What feature is that? I can't find something that does that. Sneak Attack is about adding a damage die to an attack. Assassin's Alacrity can refund your dual wield attack if used outside of combat, maybe that's what you mean?
Anyway, I explained what this mod does, if you're not sure what it means, and the many gifs in the description didn't help, maybe give it a try to fully understand, and decide if you want it or not. Note: You need either Two Weapon Fighting or Dual Wielding feat, and a source of extra attack to benefit from it.
Edit: Someone explained to me what you (probably) meant, and no it doesn't replicate that. Does it work well with this feature? I don't know, you'll have to try.
I'd like to make a suggestion: TWF being the only one to attack for Free, and DW making it so there's an additional Offhand attack As an Extra Attack. That way both enhance each other rather than having a redundant feature.
So instead of correlating to Extra Attack and Improved Extra Attack, you'd want TFW an DW to individually grant an free off-hand attack, regardless of the aformentionned features? If that's what you mean, I don't like it very much. If it's not what you mean, sorry for the misunderstanding. They already don't do the same, they are not really redundant. TFW is the best to pick if you're using light weapons as it increases damage output, DW is mandatory is you want to use heavier weapons (and higher AC). Both are valid to grant access to DWO features, which leaves room for building around.
allow me to elaborate: MA = Main Attack EA = Extra Attack BA = Bonus Action EBA = Extra Bonus Action MH = Main Hand OH = Off Hand TWF = Two Weapon Fighting Style DW = Dual Wielder ------------------------------------ Neither Feat = MA MH + EA MH + BA OH ( 3 attacks made, bonus action used)
TWF = MA MH OH + EA MH ( 3 attacks made, no bonus action used)
DW = MA MH + EA MH + BA OH + EBA OH (4 attacks made, bonus action used)
TWF+DW = MA MH OH + EA MH OH (4 attacks made, no bonus action used)
TWF would remove the BA requirement
DW would add a two weapon attack for each extra attack
both in tandem would make for optimal action economy
of course the added effects might be better reversed, really depends on what's more valuable to have in a general feat and not a fighting style feat.
I see, but that would quite complicated to make and a pain to test, I won't do it. Extra attack stuff is really messy and more complex than it should be, so that small distinction between the two really doesn't sound worth the effort it would take. Feel free to unpack the mod and mess around, you'll see what I mean.
Just saw your update! "Added a prerequisite for either Dual Wielder feat or Two Weapon fighting style for the features to apply"
So before this change it seemed impossible to gain the benefits of this mod on bladesinger, hexblade, classes that don't have an extra attack traditionally. But with this change its a cinch"!
This mod still won't do anything without an extra attack. All it does is make extra attacks apply to off-hand, so you still need that. Bladesinger does get extra attack, but unless you pick Pact of Blade, Warlock doesn't.
Thanks for the update. Everything seems to work properly except for warlock extra attack. On 5th level of pact of the blade you gain off hand extra attack resource but you can't spend it in combat no matter whether pact weapon in right hand or left. If you have 2 extra attacks(one from warlock and another from different martial class) then you gain 2 off hand attack resources but can spend only 1.
The point is dual wielding is weak. This mod makes it viable. And you would want to make it weak again, but in another way? Off-hand attacks already are inferior by not having the ability modifier added to them, which would make sense if you had the same number of them as main hand attacks, which is what this mod addresses. I don't think it'd be right to nerf anything.
For mods that increase UnlockedLevelCurve and Expansion (with Bladesinger), does it have any interaction with the addition of the Level 20 Warrior Feature that adds yet another extra attack? Does it give yet another Extra Attack Off-Hand?
Not at the moment, it handles Extra Attack, Improved Extra Attack, and Pact of the Blade Extra Attack, and they are stackable so you can have +3 this way.
Great mod but I have an issue where I don't get extra attack for off hand on the first round if I start combat by attacking with just off hand weapon(no dual attack). Also could you consider making a version where you get extra attack for off hand only if you have dual wielder feat to make it more balanced?
Is said attack done outside of turn-based mode? If that's the case, that's the reason. If you decide to attack from outside combat, enable turn-based mode before attacking with off-hand. If it's not the reason, then idk, it's working on my end. As for a prerequisite for the feat, sure, that's fair. I'll also make it work with the Two Weapon Fighting Style for good measure.
Sorry if it were already discussed, but I would really appreciate your answer.
I just started the game from the very beginning with this mod. My character as of now has no Extra Attacks. As in vanilla-game my character needs Action and Bonus action to make two attacks, so I cannot use Bonus action for anything else (like for jumping).
Perhaps I did not understand the part of mod description where you stated that with this mod I could use Bonus action for additional purposes (e.g. jumping)...
I read some discussion above and saw your statements where you told that the purpose of this mod is to give so many EA for off-hand as for main-hand. Looking only on this statement I would say that this mod do not change use of Bonus action in any way... Which contradicts with the description of the mod.
Could you please explain whether I should get any changes of use of Bonus action in dual wield combat with this mod or not?
So what this mod does exactly dumbed down is make Extra Attack apply to off-hand. It does so by changing the way regular dual wield attacks work (the toggle), replacing it with a separate action. But fundamentally, it doesn't change the cost, off-hand attacks will still cost a bonus action until you have Extra Attack (basically the mod is "useless" until you get there). The difference is when you have Extra Attack and initiate with a main weapon action, it allows you to use followup off-hand attack(s) as well as main hand ones (or dual ones). Which saves the bonus action for last, allowing you to decide what to do with it, not be forced to attack with it first to benefit from multiple off-hand attacks.
So at Warrior level 5 with one Extra Attack I will have the following situation: 1. Main-hand attack; 1.1. Receiving TWO Extra Attacks: one for main-hand and one for off-hand; 2. Main-hand Extra attack; 3. Off-hand Extra attack; 4. Using of Bonus action for Off-hand attack OR for anything else.
And in case I have two Extra attacks (e.g. lvl. 11 Warrior) at step 1.1. I will get FOUR Extra attacks: two for main-hand and two for off-hand?
There is following sequence in the description of this mod: main - off - dual - main - jump. 1. Main-hand attack - Action; 1.1. Receiving two extra attacks (as we decided earlier); 2. Off-hand attack - Off-hand EA; 3. Dual... Where my misunderstanding came from, because I saw in the game that it requires spending of Action AND Bonus action... While we have already spent Action for main-hand attack, and we will need our Bonus Action for ending with Jump.
The Dual attack's cost varies, if you have your EA availble it will use that instead of an action, and if you have EAOH available it should also consume that before bonus action, so that bonus action can effectively be used anytime, for attack or otherwise.
In case of character lvl. 5 Warlock with Improved Pact of the Blade and lvl. 5 Warrior (i.e. with two Extra attacks from different sources) I will get two EA for main-hand and only one for off-hand, right?
In the base game they don't stack anymore since the addition of honour mode. However, this can be reverted by the honour nerfs reversal file from Honour Features Unlocker. In this mod, they should stack regardless iirc, but if you don't have that file you'll have more off-hand than main hand attacks.
When will people start seeing DW for what it is? IRL even ambidextrous people find it difficult to put their off-hand to use. Having 2 weapons doesn't exactly translate into making independent attacks twice as often. Human mind can't handle simultaneous non-mirrored actions of both hands very well. And mirrored ones aren't that great either - they limit each other too much. There's some strategic value to it - making your off-hand a threat, thus forcing your opponent to be on guard in more ways than they are used to, but that's about it. Unless there's some reason you specifically need small weapons (hiding knives under clothes or some such) you're better off foregoing your two short weapons for a longer one.
Realistically I would say you're right, but isn't fantasy and games a place where we can experiment with unrealistic stuff more fun than reality?
From a game design perspective, all options should have identity and value, and in my opinion, the way dual wielding is handled in the base game doesn't achieve that. It may be more realistic, but it's also uninteresting and scales very poorly, needing a heavy investment to even be an option worth a thought to begin with.
Some people might want something else, and to that end there is this mod, among other options.
I get it that you might be very invested in realism and technicity, but that's not everyone's taste and opinion. Mods are options available for you to pick. Don't like it? Don't use it. If you have constructive criticism to offer, it is welcome. There is no purpose in your current comment.
So.. people are throwing fire balls, controlling others with their minds, raising corpses, changing into bears and summoning demonic powers. Yet you decide it is worth mentioning that people's belief in dual-wielding seems a bit out of context in a fantasy role playing game?
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JumpWhat this mod does is basically let you do as many attacks with both weapons when dual wielding when having extra attacks.
Anyway, I explained what this mod does, if you're not sure what it means, and the many gifs in the description didn't help, maybe give it a try to fully understand, and decide if you want it or not.
Note: You need either Two Weapon Fighting or Dual Wielding feat, and a source of extra attack to benefit from it.
Edit: Someone explained to me what you (probably) meant, and no it doesn't replicate that. Does it work well with this feature? I don't know, you'll have to try.
TWF being the only one to attack for Free, and DW making it so there's an additional Offhand attack As an Extra Attack. That way both enhance each other rather than having a redundant feature.
If it's not what you mean, sorry for the misunderstanding.
They already don't do the same, they are not really redundant. TFW is the best to pick if you're using light weapons as it increases damage output, DW is mandatory is you want to use heavier weapons (and higher AC). Both are valid to grant access to DWO features, which leaves room for building around.
MA = Main Attack
EA = Extra Attack
BA = Bonus Action
EBA = Extra Bonus Action
MH = Main Hand
OH = Off Hand
TWF = Two Weapon Fighting Style
DW = Dual Wielder
------------------------------------
Neither Feat = MA MH + EA MH + BA OH ( 3 attacks made, bonus action used)
TWF = MA MH OH + EA MH ( 3 attacks made, no bonus action used)
DW = MA MH + EA MH + BA OH + EBA OH (4 attacks made, bonus action used)
TWF+DW = MA MH OH + EA MH OH (4 attacks made, no bonus action used)
TWF would remove the BA requirement
DW would add a two weapon attack for each extra attack
both in tandem would make for optimal action economy
of course the added effects might be better reversed, really depends on what's more valuable to have in a general feat and not a fighting style feat.
Extra attack stuff is really messy and more complex than it should be, so that small distinction between the two really doesn't sound worth the effort it would take.
Feel free to unpack the mod and mess around, you'll see what I mean.
So before this change it seemed impossible to gain the benefits of this mod on bladesinger, hexblade, classes that don't have an extra attack traditionally. But with this change its a cinch"!
Bladesinger does get extra attack, but unless you pick Pact of Blade, Warlock doesn't.
Off-hand attacks already are inferior by not having the ability modifier added to them, which would make sense if you had the same number of them as main hand attacks, which is what this mod addresses. I don't think it'd be right to nerf anything.
As for a prerequisite for the feat, sure, that's fair. I'll also make it work with the Two Weapon Fighting Style for good measure.
Sorry if it were already discussed, but I would really appreciate your answer.
I just started the game from the very beginning with this mod.
My character as of now has no Extra Attacks.
As in vanilla-game my character needs Action and Bonus action to make two attacks, so I cannot use Bonus action for anything else (like for jumping).
Perhaps I did not understand the part of mod description where you stated that with this mod I could use Bonus action for additional purposes (e.g. jumping)...
I read some discussion above and saw your statements where you told that the purpose of this mod is to give so many EA for off-hand as for main-hand.
Looking only on this statement I would say that this mod do not change use of Bonus action in any way... Which contradicts with the description of the mod.
Could you please explain whether I should get any changes of use of Bonus action in dual wield combat with this mod or not?
Thank you in advance!
So what this mod does exactly dumbed down is make Extra Attack apply to off-hand. It does so by changing the way regular dual wield attacks work (the toggle), replacing it with a separate action. But fundamentally, it doesn't change the cost, off-hand attacks will still cost a bonus action until you have Extra Attack (basically the mod is "useless" until you get there).
The difference is when you have Extra Attack and initiate with a main weapon action, it allows you to use followup off-hand attack(s) as well as main hand ones (or dual ones). Which saves the bonus action for last, allowing you to decide what to do with it, not be forced to attack with it first to benefit from multiple off-hand attacks.
Hope that clarifies it :)
1. Main-hand attack;
1.1. Receiving TWO Extra Attacks: one for main-hand and one for off-hand;
2. Main-hand Extra attack;
3. Off-hand Extra attack;
4. Using of Bonus action for Off-hand attack OR for anything else.
And in case I have two Extra attacks (e.g. lvl. 11 Warrior) at step 1.1. I will get FOUR Extra attacks: two for main-hand and two for off-hand?
Right?
But! :D
There is following sequence in the description of this mod: main - off - dual - main - jump.
1. Main-hand attack - Action;
1.1. Receiving two extra attacks (as we decided earlier);
2. Off-hand attack - Off-hand EA;
3. Dual...
Where my misunderstanding came from, because I saw in the game that it requires spending of Action AND Bonus action...
While we have already spent Action for main-hand attack, and we will need our Bonus Action for ending with Jump.
And one more question.
In case of character lvl. 5 Warlock with Improved Pact of the Blade and lvl. 5 Warrior (i.e. with two Extra attacks from different sources) I will get two EA for main-hand and only one for off-hand, right?
However, this can be reverted by the honour nerfs reversal file from Honour Features Unlocker.
In this mod, they should stack regardless iirc, but if you don't have that file you'll have more off-hand than main hand attacks.
IRL even ambidextrous people find it difficult to put their off-hand to use.
Having 2 weapons doesn't exactly translate into making independent attacks twice as often.
Human mind can't handle simultaneous non-mirrored actions of both hands very well. And mirrored ones aren't that great either - they limit each other too much.
There's some strategic value to it - making your off-hand a threat, thus forcing your opponent to be on guard in more ways than they are used to, but that's about it. Unless there's some reason you specifically need small weapons (hiding knives under clothes or some such) you're better off foregoing your two short weapons for a longer one.
From a game design perspective, all options should have identity and value, and in my opinion, the way dual wielding is handled in the base game doesn't achieve that. It may be more realistic, but it's also uninteresting and scales very poorly, needing a heavy investment to even be an option worth a thought to begin with.
Some people might want something else, and to that end there is this mod, among other options.
I get it that you might be very invested in realism and technicity, but that's not everyone's taste and opinion. Mods are options available for you to pick. Don't like it? Don't use it. If you have constructive criticism to offer, it is welcome. There is no purpose in your current comment.
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Jump