Is there a possible fix to respec? I've playing with origin characters and would love to try this class out, without making a custom character. As stated on the description page you can't respec into this class if you have a save with a previous class. Does that mean I can respec with an origin character if I don't save before respecting?
I have actually been able to respec for both origin gale and S heart so I believe it is fixed now. If you find any bugs please let me know as I have been really pressed for time.
Thank you for looking into this, I sincerely appreciate your efforts! I have not started a new play yet but, I figured, based on your success I would try to respec on my current play through. I was unsuccessful at first, until I thought, let me switch to PC input. I have been playing the game on my ROG Ally. Once I switched to desktop input I was able to complete respec and switch back to console input after I was done, everything worked fine after that. I will play for a few days and finally give the class a try! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!
This is a really fun class, thank you!! It goes perfectly with an OC character of mine (a desert elf whose people revere serpents, venom/poison spellsword). Since you said you're open to ideas, what about replacing the jin with something else? A snake (are those even in the game? if so that would work perfectly) or spider, or something poison/venom based.
Also perhaps giving the summon abilities that play off of your own, for ex. their own version of making a target weak to poison. Some way to work in tandem with them, because they do feel a little out of place for me personally.
Thank you very much! I actually hadn't considered ranged weapons being effected by those cantrips. Probably because the character this mod is based on only uses a spear. However that is something I can certainly look into adding in the future!
At lv9 you only have 1 level 4 spell slot, and 2 level 3 slots, while having 2 level 5 slots. Regular progression would give 3 3rd level, 3 4th level, and 1 5th level, but even if you wanted to eschew regular, kinda weird to have 1 4th but 2 5th
Giga Regen absolutely needs limiting, right now you can full heal out of combat.
When dealing poison damage with darts or the bomb, I'm regularly inflicting paralyzed, stunned, and drunk conditions. Not only is this busted strong, its not explained anywhere that this happens.
Okay loaded the mod and done some initial testing. I'll be giving feedback in 3 areas: Theme, Implementation, and Balance.
Theme This is really cool, very classic JRPG vibes which I am all here for. It feels like something Alchemist Artificer should have been.
Implementation You mentioned that you didn't know how to replace older features, I would suggest you look at the code for Monks unarmed attacks as those have a scaling die size, that way you can upgrade the original feature rather than replacing it. You could also look at how open hand monk replaces flurry of blows with topple/stagger/push.
For implementing the fix to poison resistance, you could also look at the code for Elemental Adept, and apply one for poison. The 'Vuln' system is... very strong.
Balance
TL:DR: I've put a lot here, and I'd like to open by saying, the theme is interesting enough, and close enough to balanced, to use pretty happily imo for any casual, or non-challenge play. It ends up being a bit overpowered, but thats mostly from a couple of INCREDIBLY broken features, while the rest of the class remains in the ~good range. Theres a bit of an issue, imo, with progression compared to the rest of the game, and I would argue that staying in line with the rest of the game IS important. The amount of tools you get is fewer than other spellcasters, but in turn you do those things generally better, which is a fine trade. I absolutely agree with going with a limited wizard spell list too, giving it the cleric or a supportive list would have made a monster.
Feats: This class gets 5 feats, by far the most. Having 1 more feat, in line with fighter, would probably be fine, but 5 is overkill.
Progression: Overall, what you get is fine, but the order you get it in is wonky. I would strongly suggest you move your feats (skills) into line with the regular game (4/(6)/8/12), for a few reasons. 1: Multiclassing with this class is nuts. 2 Levels gets a feat, 5 gets 3rd level spells and another feat. 2: For reasons discussed later, you end up with a far more potent stat spread to interact with items. 3: You have 2 blank levels, which benefit from smoothing out the progress curve 4: Your spells come in clumps, rather than a smooth progression.
Suggestion: Lv 2 feat > straight swap to lv4. You could move your expertise and Tsupig to this level, as you already get darts, lv1 spells, and gnome cunning at 1st level, and your poison work around. Lv 5 feat > straight swap to lv6. You still get 3rd level spells at 5, which is a HUGE step up. Lv 10 feat > remove. Your darts improve at this level, and honestly thats enough.
Spells: Spread out the gaining of spells, so instead of gaining 2 lv3 spells at 5, gain 1 spell at 5, and 1 at 6. Stuff like this in general makes the class feel fuller.
A couple of features could also do with a tweak, specifically Tsupig and Giga Regen.
Tsupig at early levels is bonkers strong. Hes twice as tanky as you, and deals way more damage more reliably. At the same time, past level 6 or so he becomes kind of bad, and most useful as a distraction/damage sponge. My proposal is to limit him to a once per long rest summon, so you get him twice per day at most. This mitigates early levels a bit, while also making it less micro-managey at higher levels where you feel bad for forgetting him.
Giga Regen This feature is in general bonkers. It shows me a remedial potion status too, which means no blind, poison, or paralyze, at range, tagged onto a bonus action, area effect (big area) cure wounds. This might be a bug with the remedial, in which case its not QUITE as broken, but either way I would strongly suggest imposing some limit on it, as its currently incredibly overtuned. Suggestions: 1: It shows as a 2nd level spell. If it cost a spell slot, its VERY strong for the level but probably not game breaking. You also currently have very few regular uses for the full-caster spell slots you get. 2: Limit the uses to a class resource, either 1 per short rest (maybe increase to 2 at lv6 like cleric's channel), or X per long rest (say, 2 uses scaling to 4 or 5?)
Topic: Darts The darts raise a few things. From what I can see, the intended form of the darts is probably fine. Pretty strong, but not broken. There are a couple of things that I would suggest altering.
1: Cantrip Being free isn't an issue. I thought it would be tbh, but it isn't. Being a cantrip though, these interact a bit too powerfully with cantrip boost items like potent robe, and unlike other casters you get enough feats to max both INT and CHA, while keeping respectable CON and DEX or using items/feats to negate those low stats. Suggestion: Do what you did with greater stealth, make it a lv1 spell but cost no slot. You don't need a use limit on it either.
2: Poison Vuln Because this hits so many times, and your poison vuln seems near or at 100%, you can easily spread poison to 3 targets as a bonus action before dropping a cloudkill. I ABSOLUTELY agree with having a base feature that negates poison resistance, its necessary for the class, but applying vulnerability so easily is overkill. Suggestions: 1: You could look into recoding it in line with elemental adept, so it bypasses resistance. You could even make this a lv2 feature or something and include the 'cant roll 1s', which is nice for the darts. 2: Make a class action that you can use on a creature to apply poison vuln, but needs a save.
Thank you for the comprehensive and thoughtful response! With the 1.0 launch I knew it would come with some bugs. I'm glad you like the feel, that was a hope an intent. I didn't get notifications for these comments which is why I didn't address them sooner. It will take me some time to address all of these points but I think they certainly help the class! Thank you again for your time and criticism!
Class Progression 1) I did want a "non standard" spell slot/feat progression but I see your point about two 5s but one 4. Should I just make it two of every slot? I wanted to move away from just a poison type wizard while still keeping as much spell casting ability as a "Evil Genius Poisoner" would reasonably have. I can look at smoothing out the progression and also spreading spells out. Multiclassing in my testing has appeared to be broken so I didn't account for this lol. The TsuPig being at the start of the game was because I felt like like initially the class would struggle only having the spear/darts. Also I do want the class to heavily feature the summon, either by leaning on it initially or by using it as a shield, pawn late game. I do understand it isnt perfect though. My general test is to be able to beat the cambions on the nautiloid on like easy or medium, once more not a perfect test.
Giga Regen 2) The vision for Giga Regen was for a light spell/ability that could be cast often for healing while also correcting friendly fire from Venom Bomb. I do like your idea about tying regen to a class resource. This could allow liberal use of it but not infinite.
Statuses from attacks 3) My thoughts with the statuses for the bomb were it to be high stakes(friendly fire, statuses, it can be thrown back and enemies will actively try to avoid it), high reward(thrown often, statuses and it can be thrown by allies). I didnt realize the darts could inflict statuses other than their respective poisons or "Vuln"(which i tried to balance by having saving throw of 3 for the first dart spell). If darts are causing paralyzed, stunned, and drunk, maybe I could refactor them so that it adds effects as you unlock stronger versions of the spell? One effect per each dart? I do like throwing the bomb and darts often as characteristics of this class. Also my bad on missing the status description on the darts, will certainly add that in.
Upgrading spells 4) I was trying to pass old dart/weapon poison spells out on the level up screen but it would never want to accept the old version of the spell to get rid of it. Right now I just deselect them from the hot bar. I will look into the monk like you mentioned.
Why is everything immune to poison 5) There is a "Vuln" effect yes which was my initial attempt at bypassing poison. Later I adapted a hidden passive that seems to just bypass resistance. My thought was for the class to always have the bypass and maybe add the "Vuln" later in the progression? Open to ideas on this as with anything.
Balancing 6) Yeah my target was casual, non optimized play. I mention it being around hard difficulty based on my opinion of if someone used it in their first playthrough, that is just an opinion though. Also I did take a stab at a limited spell list, not sure its the perfect limited list but I did want to restrict.
Feats 7) With getting 5 feats I understand it is strong, I wanted to compensate for the fact that this class isn't just a wizard/ spear focused poisoner and allow wiggle room to add feats to round out the class. For example not feeling like they are limiting themselves by taking "Skilled" or "Weapon Master" since you are only actually proficient with a spear at first. I'm not hard set 5 feats, that was just my approach.
1: Cantrip Being free isn't an issue. I thought it would be tbh, but it isn't. Being a cantrip though, these interact a bit too powerfully with cantrip boost items like potent robe, and unlike other casters you get enough feats to max both INT and CHA, while keeping respectable CON and DEX or using items/feats to negate those low stats. Suggestion: Do what you did with greater stealth, make it a lv1 spell but cost no slot. You don't need a use limit on it either.
- Do you mean moving darts to when you get level 1 spells? I don't know what changing the spell level but making it not cost a slot would really do differently?
2: Poison Vuln Because this hits so many times, and your poison vuln seems near or at 100%, you can easily spread poison to 3 targets as a bonus action before dropping a cloudkill. I ABSOLUTELY agree with having a base feature that negates poison resistance, its necessary for the class, but applying vulnerability so easily is overkill. Suggestions: 1: You could look into recoding it in line with elemental adept, so it bypasses resistance. You could even make this a lv2 feature or something and include the 'cant roll 1s', which is nice for the darts. 2: Make a class action that you can use on a creature to apply poison vuln, but needs a save
-I like both of the ideas and will look into tying to integrate something for both
The Terra Battle Squad summon seemed like the most busted part of the class. You didn't address it here but ill call myself out. I think in the future I would maybe add one time use spells like divine intervention(di) to summon them individually or all once? I have yet to reverse engineer di but I think that sounds fine.
1: There is no really 'correct' answer here, I'd just suggest pick something consistent and stick there. As far as low levels go, particularly the cambion fight, magic missile is by FAR the highest average damage, you you can spam 5-6 of them. I don't think Tsupig is particularly broken, tying back to your limited tools, but just a little warping.
2: Literally any form of limitation would save this feature. You could even make it a # of uses equal to your level if you wanted it to be spammable, that still removes the out of combat full heal, while giving you lots of charges.
3: Its showing me the statuses from the darts, but sometimes not actually applying those statuses... its a bit choppy. Also, the darts do -not- need to be stronger, you can comfortably nuke act 2 mobs with 1~2 casts and minimal gear support. As for the bomb, one 'exploit' I've noticed that kinda breaks away from the risk/reward play that would honestly balance it is, the bomb can be damaged and insta detonated. So if you throw the bomb (free action), then fire just one dart at it - insta boom.
4: Fair
5: I'd just suggest elemental adept at that point.
6: Ya thats a fine goal, imo
7: A thing to consider are racial proficiencies, such as elf giving a lot of dex weapons, or gith giving sword weapons. Its probably not the end of the world, either way.
Darts So on the cantrip vs lv1 etc, by making it a cantrip you allow the darts to interact with cantrip-related items. The big tickets here are things like Potent Robe. This allows you to add your Charisma modifier (which you have the feats to max) to the damage of your cantrips, basically adding 15~20 damage depending on the dart type, and up to 35 damage a turn if you double darts at lv10. Add in vuln and that becomes 70 bonus damage, without a chance of missing.
Terra Squad At level 12 with TBS, you're competing with sorcs who might be throwing 9 eldritch blasts a turn while also having an elemental run around causing havoc, or sniper bard builds putting out 10+ sharpshooter attacks for 35+ damage a hit with a 99% hit rate. Having a super strong feature at this level is kinda not as much of an issue XD.
19 comments
in deed 🤣
Also perhaps giving the summon abilities that play off of your own, for ex. their own version of making a target weak to poison. Some way to work in tandem with them, because they do feel a little out of place for me personally.
Absolutely endorsed, thanks for this mod!
Is this intentional? I envision the class as being primarily ranged.
Great mod btw.
At lv9 you only have 1 level 4 spell slot, and 2 level 3 slots, while having 2 level 5 slots.
Regular progression would give 3 3rd level, 3 4th level, and 1 5th level, but even if you wanted to eschew regular, kinda weird to have 1 4th but 2 5th
Giga Regen absolutely needs limiting, right now you can full heal out of combat.
When dealing poison damage with darts or the bomb, I'm regularly inflicting paralyzed, stunned, and drunk conditions. Not only is this busted strong, its not explained anywhere that this happens.
Okay loaded the mod and done some initial testing. I'll be giving feedback in 3 areas: Theme, Implementation, and Balance.
Theme
This is really cool, very classic JRPG vibes which I am all here for. It feels like something Alchemist Artificer should have been.
Implementation
You mentioned that you didn't know how to replace older features, I would suggest you look at the code for Monks unarmed attacks as those have a scaling die size, that way you can upgrade the original feature rather than replacing it. You could also look at how open hand monk replaces flurry of blows with topple/stagger/push.
For implementing the fix to poison resistance, you could also look at the code for Elemental Adept, and apply one for poison. The 'Vuln' system is... very strong.
Balance
TL:DR: I've put a lot here, and I'd like to open by saying, the theme is interesting enough, and close enough to balanced, to use pretty happily imo for any casual, or non-challenge play. It ends up being a bit overpowered, but thats mostly from a couple of INCREDIBLY broken features, while the rest of the class remains in the ~good range. Theres a bit of an issue, imo, with progression compared to the rest of the game, and I would argue that staying in line with the rest of the game IS important. The amount of tools you get is fewer than other spellcasters, but in turn you do those things generally better, which is a fine trade. I absolutely agree with going with a limited wizard spell list too, giving it the cleric or a supportive list would have made a monster.
Feats: This class gets 5 feats, by far the most. Having 1 more feat, in line with fighter, would probably be fine, but 5 is overkill.
Progression: Overall, what you get is fine, but the order you get it in is wonky. I would strongly suggest you move your feats (skills) into line with the regular game (4/(6)/8/12), for a few reasons.
1: Multiclassing with this class is nuts. 2 Levels gets a feat, 5 gets 3rd level spells and another feat.
2: For reasons discussed later, you end up with a far more potent stat spread to interact with items.
3: You have 2 blank levels, which benefit from smoothing out the progress curve
4: Your spells come in clumps, rather than a smooth progression.
Suggestion:
Lv 2 feat > straight swap to lv4. You could move your expertise and Tsupig to this level, as you already get darts, lv1 spells, and gnome cunning at 1st level, and your poison work around.
Lv 5 feat > straight swap to lv6. You still get 3rd level spells at 5, which is a HUGE step up.
Lv 10 feat > remove. Your darts improve at this level, and honestly thats enough.
Spells: Spread out the gaining of spells, so instead of gaining 2 lv3 spells at 5, gain 1 spell at 5, and 1 at 6. Stuff like this in general makes the class feel fuller.
A couple of features could also do with a tweak, specifically Tsupig and Giga Regen.
Tsupig at early levels is bonkers strong. Hes twice as tanky as you, and deals way more damage more reliably. At the same time, past level 6 or so he becomes kind of bad, and most useful as a distraction/damage sponge.
My proposal is to limit him to a once per long rest summon, so you get him twice per day at most. This mitigates early levels a bit, while also making it less micro-managey at higher levels where you feel bad for forgetting him.
Giga Regen
This feature is in general bonkers. It shows me a remedial potion status too, which means no blind, poison, or paralyze, at range, tagged onto a bonus action, area effect (big area) cure wounds. This might be a bug with the remedial, in which case its not QUITE as broken, but either way I would strongly suggest imposing some limit on it, as its currently incredibly overtuned.
Suggestions:
1: It shows as a 2nd level spell. If it cost a spell slot, its VERY strong for the level but probably not game breaking. You also currently have very few regular uses for the full-caster spell slots you get.
2: Limit the uses to a class resource, either 1 per short rest (maybe increase to 2 at lv6 like cleric's channel), or X per long rest (say, 2 uses scaling to 4 or 5?)
Topic: Darts
The darts raise a few things. From what I can see, the intended form of the darts is probably fine. Pretty strong, but not broken. There are a couple of things that I would suggest altering.
1: Cantrip
Being free isn't an issue. I thought it would be tbh, but it isn't. Being a cantrip though, these interact a bit too powerfully with cantrip boost items like potent robe, and unlike other casters you get enough feats to max both INT and CHA, while keeping respectable CON and DEX or using items/feats to negate those low stats.
Suggestion: Do what you did with greater stealth, make it a lv1 spell but cost no slot. You don't need a use limit on it either.
2: Poison Vuln
Because this hits so many times, and your poison vuln seems near or at 100%, you can easily spread poison to 3 targets as a bonus action before dropping a cloudkill.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with having a base feature that negates poison resistance, its necessary for the class, but applying vulnerability so easily is overkill.
Suggestions:
1: You could look into recoding it in line with elemental adept, so it bypasses resistance. You could even make this a lv2 feature or something and include the 'cant roll 1s', which is nice for the darts.
2: Make a class action that you can use on a creature to apply poison vuln, but needs a save.
Class Progression
1) I did want a "non standard" spell slot/feat progression but I see your point about two 5s but one 4. Should I just make it two of every slot? I wanted to move away from just a poison type wizard while still keeping as much spell casting ability as a "Evil Genius Poisoner" would reasonably have. I can look at smoothing out the progression and also spreading spells out. Multiclassing in my testing has appeared to be broken so I didn't account for this lol. The TsuPig being at the start of the game was because I felt like like initially the class would struggle only having the spear/darts. Also I do want the class to heavily feature the summon, either by leaning on it initially or by using it as a shield, pawn late game. I do understand it isnt perfect though. My general test is to be able to beat the cambions on the nautiloid on like easy or medium, once more not a perfect test.
Giga Regen
2) The vision for Giga Regen was for a light spell/ability that could be cast often for healing while also correcting friendly fire from Venom Bomb. I do like your idea about tying regen to a class resource. This could allow liberal use of it but not infinite.
Statuses from attacks
3) My thoughts with the statuses for the bomb were it to be high stakes(friendly fire, statuses, it can be thrown back and enemies will actively try to avoid it), high reward(thrown often, statuses and it can be thrown by allies). I didnt realize the darts could inflict statuses other than their respective poisons or "Vuln"(which i tried to balance by having saving throw of 3 for the first dart spell). If darts are causing paralyzed, stunned, and drunk, maybe I could refactor them so that it adds effects as you unlock stronger versions of the spell? One effect per each dart? I do like throwing the bomb and darts often as characteristics of this class. Also my bad on missing the status description on the darts, will certainly add that in.
Upgrading spells
4) I was trying to pass old dart/weapon poison spells out on the level up screen but it would never want to accept the old version of the spell to get rid of it. Right now I just deselect them from the hot bar. I will look into the monk like you mentioned.
Why is everything immune to poison
5) There is a "Vuln" effect yes which was my initial attempt at bypassing poison. Later I adapted a hidden passive that seems to just bypass resistance. My thought was for the class to always have the bypass and maybe add the "Vuln" later in the progression? Open to ideas on this as with anything.
Balancing
6) Yeah my target was casual, non optimized play. I mention it being around hard difficulty based on my opinion of if someone used it in their first playthrough, that is just an opinion though. Also I did take a stab at a limited spell list, not sure its the perfect limited list but I did want to restrict.
Feats
7) With getting 5 feats I understand it is strong, I wanted to compensate for the fact that this class isn't just a wizard/ spear focused poisoner and allow wiggle room to add feats to round out the class. For example not feeling like they are limiting themselves by taking "Skilled" or "Weapon Master" since you are only actually proficient with a spear at first. I'm not hard set 5 feats, that was just my approach.
1: Cantrip
Being free isn't an issue. I thought it would be tbh, but it isn't. Being a cantrip though, these interact a bit too powerfully with cantrip boost items like potent robe, and unlike other casters you get enough feats to max both INT and CHA, while keeping respectable CON and DEX or using items/feats to negate those low stats.
Suggestion: Do what you did with greater stealth, make it a lv1 spell but cost no slot. You don't need a use limit on it either.
- Do you mean moving darts to when you get level 1 spells? I don't know what changing the spell level but making it not cost a slot would really do differently?
2: Poison Vuln
Because this hits so many times, and your poison vuln seems near or at 100%, you can easily spread poison to 3 targets as a bonus action before dropping a cloudkill.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with having a base feature that negates poison resistance, its necessary for the class, but applying vulnerability so easily is overkill.
Suggestions:
1: You could look into recoding it in line with elemental adept, so it bypasses resistance. You could even make this a lv2 feature or something and include the 'cant roll 1s', which is nice for the darts.
2: Make a class action that you can use on a creature to apply poison vuln, but needs a save
-I like both of the ideas and will look into tying to integrate something for both
The Terra Battle Squad summon seemed like the most busted part of the class. You didn't address it here but ill call myself out. I think in the future I would maybe add one time use spells like divine intervention(di) to summon them individually or all once? I have yet to reverse engineer di but I think that sounds fine.
1: There is no really 'correct' answer here, I'd just suggest pick something consistent and stick there. As far as low levels go, particularly the cambion fight, magic missile is by FAR the highest average damage, you you can spam 5-6 of them. I don't think Tsupig is particularly broken, tying back to your limited tools, but just a little warping.
2: Literally any form of limitation would save this feature. You could even make it a # of uses equal to your level if you wanted it to be spammable, that still removes the out of combat full heal, while giving you lots of charges.
3: Its showing me the statuses from the darts, but sometimes not actually applying those statuses... its a bit choppy. Also, the darts do -not- need to be stronger, you can comfortably nuke act 2 mobs with 1~2 casts and minimal gear support.
As for the bomb, one 'exploit' I've noticed that kinda breaks away from the risk/reward play that would honestly balance it is, the bomb can be damaged and insta detonated. So if you throw the bomb (free action), then fire just one dart at it - insta boom.
4: Fair
5: I'd just suggest elemental adept at that point.
6: Ya thats a fine goal, imo
7: A thing to consider are racial proficiencies, such as elf giving a lot of dex weapons, or gith giving sword weapons. Its probably not the end of the world, either way.
Darts
So on the cantrip vs lv1 etc, by making it a cantrip you allow the darts to interact with cantrip-related items. The big tickets here are things like Potent Robe. This allows you to add your Charisma modifier (which you have the feats to max) to the damage of your cantrips, basically adding 15~20 damage depending on the dart type, and up to 35 damage a turn if you double darts at lv10. Add in vuln and that becomes 70 bonus damage, without a chance of missing.
Terra Squad
At level 12 with TBS, you're competing with sorcs who might be throwing 9 eldritch blasts a turn while also having an elemental run around causing havoc, or sniper bard builds putting out 10+ sharpshooter attacks for 35+ damage a hit with a 99% hit rate. Having a super strong feature at this level is kinda not as much of an issue XD.