Love the idea, just wonder if you would consider uploading a version where the upper limit of recovery that is available is either capped or nerfed? IMO the current forms of the mod give too much of an advantage to high fat backgrounds and nimble.
Ie: Either A) 12 base fat recovery + fat / 20 version. B) 9 base fat recovery + fat / 10 version but with the maximum fat recovery capped at 15 in line with vanilla (ie no scaling beyond 60 usable fat).
Option A would reduce the buff to nimble and high fat backgrounds and option B would basically return everything to vanilla balance (assuming you make hitting 60 usable fat a priority on every build) while still killing Fat neutral builds.
Also I forgot to add - if you don't cap the max fatigue recovery at 15 then IMO the new cookie cutter build would be a fat neutral nimble Qatal dodge build - with ~120 base fatigue this build could easily have ~100+ usable fatigue at practically all times. 100 base usable fat means having 20 fat recover per turn which would allow for 3 deathblow attacks while recovering to basically full fatigue every turn. This results in more damage than the current fat neutral builds, and similar defensive output overall (thanks to constant nimble and +15mdef from dodge due to equipment weight barely impacting your initiative and 20 recovery keeping it from dropping). And you wouldn't need relentless thus freeing up yet another perk slot that would usually be taken.
Regarding Recover, if it had a similar flat component instead of a greater percentage of usable fatigue you'd not only make it viable to a greater range of builds but also prevent enemy balance issues from a higher scaling bonus as you mentioned on your post.
Another benefit would be offsetting how the reduction of flat natural recovery per turn might hurt bros with fatigue injuries, already some of the toughest, considerably more than others if their build doesn't allow a large pool of usable fatigue.
These are crude thoughts, I'm probably missing something XD
A bro with 30 usable fatigue would have 12 recovery, loosing 9 every 3 turns vs Vanilla, so if he takes two action turns then recover on the third turn with a flat +9 he would just be getting back to normal levels and the mod's Recover would be essentially neutral compared to Vanilla.
For the cost of a turn and a perk point I think it could be a little over just neutral, as I agree with you on it being not in a great spot for low fatigue bros already, so possibly something similar to:
- Recover (50% +12) : minor fatigue gain over Vanilla, essentially +1 per turn - Recover (50% +15) : small fatigue gain over Vanilla, essentially +2 per turn - Recover (40% +18) : same small gain on 30 usable fatigue, essentially +2 per turn, falling off under +1 on 100 usable fatigue
Love the mod! had similar idea a while back. Currently trying the 12/15 since it's the least impactful for a start (funny how careful I've become with fatigue numbers to just get that 1 extra recovery).
I'm fine with Recover but wondered how would change to Brawny from current version to a % increase to max fatigue work? We already have % increase to other two secondaries in Colossus and Focused Mind why not the third? It would change it from BF support to a much more versatile perk. 25% might be too much (or not) so 20% or as low as 15%. Interested in some more coding??
?Very much like the mod and what is does, but I'm a bit unsure about the formula, I think starting at 9 base fatigue recovery might be a tad bit too low. I would consider to bump it up to 10 or consider changing the formula all together. The reason is two-fold (reasoning is based on playing on expert/expert and without tryout mods):
First, in the current state of the game I feel that 90 hp on any frontline (with colossus) is on the low end of what is needed. Also HP almost more important on BF bros than on nimble bros, especially when you move into harder camps due to armor piercing damage.
Second, noble backgrounds rarely feels viable as mid game hires (or late for that matter) because of their low secondary stats (HP/FAT).
Third, Nimbleforge is a good build without the mod, now it feels like it competely outshines pure BF which I dont really feel is viable except on fringe case bros.
Thanks for giving it a try. I'm open to suggestions, and might put up a version where you can change the number yourself. Nimbleforge does take an additional perk, so that's something to consider about the balance.
Thanks for making it! Fatigue is, as you said, in a weird state and is if you ask me by far the worst stat in the base game. In vanilla I would only happily level fatigue on BF tanks tbh.
If you got the time and interest, could you make a version that is 12 base fat + (useable fatigue/15)? Think it would reduce the hardnerf effects on BF the current version has but still incentivize the player to take some fatigue rolls. Brawny doesnt become a "must have perk" to be able to use BF armor but instead either fills a role as a patch perk for low FAT bros OR a DMG perk for high FAT bros.
As for the perk economy aspect: I always take Brow on my BF bros (think its more or less a 22ish % increase to their EHP iirc) but I dont take brow on my NimbleForge. And I would also argue, if one uses the mod, that most backgrounds (especially highborn/combat ones) will need Brawny if you want to use any armor in the BF category, making BF a 2 perk build even if one doesnt take Brow as well. I would consider pure Nimble the only true "one perk wonder", but that is balanced by it getting weaker the further you get into a campaign.
Looking at the numbers, your proposed version is quite strong. You'd have 13 fat with 10 fatigue, reach 14 at 25, and back to 15 at 40. Perhaps 11 / 15 works better. The biggest problem with these numbers is that it becomes quite difficult to quickly calculate the fat you'll have. With a divider of 10 it's very straightforward. I'll add two versions, one with 10/10 and one with 12/15. The values are very easy to tweak though, so you could try some more out.
Yeah, exactly 15 at 45. So compared to the standard version the player gains 1 fat/turn if a Bro has 60 usable fat, but both versions offer 3 fat/turn at 90 useable stam. I'll test both new versions in the coming week or two and I'll come back with some feedback after :)
20 comments
does it applies to all humanoid characters (brigands) or just the brothers?
Ie: Either
A) 12 base fat recovery + fat / 20 version.
B) 9 base fat recovery + fat / 10 version but with the maximum fat recovery capped at 15 in line with vanilla (ie no scaling beyond 60 usable fat).
Option A would reduce the buff to nimble and high fat backgrounds and option B would basically return everything to vanilla balance (assuming you make hitting 60 usable fat a priority on every build) while still killing Fat neutral builds.
Regarding Recover, if it had a similar flat component instead of a greater percentage of usable fatigue you'd not only make it viable to a greater range of builds but also prevent enemy balance issues from a higher scaling bonus as you mentioned on your post.
Another benefit would be offsetting how the reduction of flat natural recovery per turn might hurt bros with fatigue injuries, already some of the toughest, considerably more than others if their build doesn't allow a large pool of usable fatigue.
A bro with 30 usable fatigue would have 12 recovery, loosing 9 every 3 turns vs Vanilla, so if he takes two action turns then recover on the third turn with a flat +9 he would just be getting back to normal levels and the mod's Recover would be essentially neutral compared to Vanilla.
For the cost of a turn and a perk point I think it could be a little over just neutral, as I agree with you on it being not in a great spot for low fatigue bros already, so possibly something similar to:
- Recover (50% +12) : minor fatigue gain over Vanilla, essentially +1 per turn
- Recover (50% +15) : small fatigue gain over Vanilla, essentially +2 per turn
- Recover (40% +18) : same small gain on 30 usable fatigue, essentially +2 per turn, falling off under +1 on 100 usable fatigue
These numbers seem reasonable to me. I'll wait what others have to say and then look to implement it.
I'm fine with Recover but wondered how would change to Brawny from current version to a % increase to max fatigue work? We already have % increase to other two secondaries in Colossus and Focused Mind why not the third? It would change it from BF support to a much more versatile perk. 25% might be too much (or not) so 20% or as low as 15%. Interested in some more coding??
First, in the current state of the game I feel that 90 hp on any frontline (with colossus) is on the low end of what is needed. Also HP almost more important on BF bros than on nimble bros, especially when you move into harder camps due to armor piercing damage.
Second, noble backgrounds rarely feels viable as mid game hires (or late for that matter) because of their low secondary stats (HP/FAT).
Third, Nimbleforge is a good build without the mod, now it feels like it competely outshines pure BF which I dont really feel is viable except on fringe case bros.
Nimbleforge does take an additional perk, so that's something to consider about the balance.
If you got the time and interest, could you make a version that is 12 base fat + (useable fatigue/15)? Think it would reduce the hardnerf effects on BF the current version has but still incentivize the player to take some fatigue rolls. Brawny doesnt become a "must have perk" to be able to use BF armor but instead either fills a role as a patch perk for low FAT bros OR a DMG perk for high FAT bros.
As for the perk economy aspect: I always take Brow on my BF bros (think its more or less a 22ish % increase to their EHP iirc) but I dont take brow on my NimbleForge. And I would also argue, if one uses the mod, that most backgrounds (especially highborn/combat ones) will need Brawny if you want to use any armor in the BF category, making BF a 2 perk build even if one doesnt take Brow as well. I would consider pure Nimble the only true "one perk wonder", but that is balanced by it getting weaker the further you get into a campaign.
I'll add two versions, one with 10/10 and one with 12/15. The values are very easy to tweak though, so you could try some more out.
And thanks for the new version!