Just wanted to say that I really like this rebalance mod. It's subtle changes makes enough a difference to notice, but really keeps the game balance intact! Good work! On a side point; I just reworked my increased spot/sensor mod to work with ModTek; works like a dream and allows use of other mods that touch that same .json! Have run into zero issues on all of my ModTek mods that I'm using as well. Here's hoping you convert your mod to ModTek as soon as you can!
Need to correct : Large Pulse Laser -> 5 tonnes ( instead 7 tonnes ), compare to Large Laser = 5 tonnes Medium Pulse Laser -> 1 tonnes ( instead 2 tonnes ), compare to Medium Laser = 1 tonnes
Been using this mod. I think it does really great work for most of the normal weapons in the game. although the rare SLDF weapons (Pulse/ER) Still seem pretty crap when comparing Heat tonnage and damage. I don't know how to mod the files myself or I would. I have another mod that allows me to find Lostech rarely on SLDF and Research planets. Everything costs quite the pretty penny. I was just happy to see them so I bought them and they're really meh. I could only see myself using them on assaults with tonnage to spare and not enough hard points. Are there any plans to take a look at these again?
Aren't LRM overpowered still? And AC underpowered?
For LRM, having that type of damage/ton AND massive range AND indirect fire AND stability damage? I mean, it seems easily the best weapon. I was thinking about modding missiles myself and reducing the damage from 4 to 3 per hit.
As far as AC's, yes they don't generate as much heat, but we also have 50 to 80 free heat production before we even have an issue. This means the heat generating weapons can output significantly more damage initially until they have to run heat neutral so they dont' overheat. Plus lasers get an accuracy bonus and there is no ammo to blow up.
Great mod, and I plan on using it, but it still seems silly to me to use anything at range other than LRM and AC's seem a subpar choice to alternatives.
As an additional recommendations, I'd love to see lasers impart heat damage like flamers as well. But maybe that's just me. :)
Hey, ill answer directly to your comment in order:
LRMs overpowered compared to AC: No, the AC are pinpoint damage, while the LRMs spread over more components. Depending on "what" you want to accomplish, they can be a very bad weapon. Also, LRMs are not that strong if the enemy mech uses guarded and cover. Getting bombarded by 1-2 damage projectiles doesnt really do much if you have over 1400 armor, or even 1800 on a 100t mech.
We have 30 free heat production, not 50 or 80. I get that you probably mean the heat bar instead of the normal dissipation every round (what i mean), but i had fights where i fired every round with everything i have with a net heat build up of something like 6 or 7, and i got close to overheating because the AI had 10+ assault class units.
About Energy weapons that can frontload damage: This doesnt matter if you have assaults. They just shrug off PPCs or Large Lasers, even with WBM and you will be hot. Ideally you dont want to disable 70% of your weapon tonnage after 2 salvos because youre too hot. Heavy weapons are already fairly inefficient, since you can just take 3 Medium Lasers and do more damage then a PPC. And with the insane amount of objects and line of sight breakers, its not hard to get close enough to use them.
Thanks for your comment. I think - Energy weapons are now at the same level as ACs. Just have a look at the Column K in my Google Spreadsheet ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/171yWruL0t0X0JipwPrgKC-bpWg3Nw0QrtxzLr0vUMe0 ). As you can see, a PPC does similar damage per adjusted weight as an AC10, but has more range AND a very nice 5% hit debuff. Large Laser and AC10 are even closer together with a nice Accuracy buff and debuff between them, as well as more range on the AC5, that needs Ammo. Its a decision - not an automatically choice since one is clearly better. Well - at least in my eyes :)
About lasers doing heat damage: Thats not how they work and i rather stick with the rich universe. Lasers are a powerful heat source, since it literally melts the armor where it hits. You can read as much in the novels. But if the beam stops, there is no lingering heat, like with the napalm-like Inferno SRMs or Flamer. Flamer work btw so well because they heat the air around the Mech, which negates practically every ability for the heat sinks to dump their heat (thats the reason why Heat Sinks dont work in a vacuum). The goal of flamers is to increase heat of the target, which they do. Basically - same goal, different way to get there. Not that it matters, its a nice idea, but i wont touch that.
For heat production I'm talking about how much heat you can build before you overheat. A +10 heat weapon can be fired 5 to 8 times in a single round for no penalty, as an example.
Hope you don't mind, but let's go into more detail. Let's compare LRM10 vs AC5.
Damage:40 v 45 Range: 630 v 540 Heat:10 v 10 Stability: 20 v 10 Ammo:similar Weight: 5 v 8
OK, at 45 damage, unless it's a really lightly armored unit, you're going to need multiple shots which is going to end up as spread damage. (This isn't to mention the ability to target a side or called shots that gives LRM a significant improvement). So while the cluster effect is present for LRM, it's really pretty similar for everything not AC20 or 10 (and even AC10 is questionable). In comparison, both weapons are pretty similar except for 2 points: 5 more damage for AC and 3 more tons. There is NO WAY I'm going to upgrade an LRM10 for 3 tons to add 5 damage. And as your spreadsheet notes, it's 3.65 to 4.29 effective damage/ton. Then add on the extra range, DOUBLE the stability damage (and for lesser weight too), and INDIRECT FIRE. Give me a lance using LRM10 and it will devastate a lance using AC5s. The AC2 is even worse, whereas the LRM5/15/20 get better! The only saving benefit of the AC is it has slightly lower minimum range and that the damage is focused. But at 45 damage, the focused damage is going to be spread out. Which mech has even just 90 damage on one compartment so it could at least be 2 shot? Gotta be pretty lightly armoured. And getting both shots to hit a single area is tough without called shot. But with called shot the LRM's become focused as well! So what's the point of using ACs? I don't see it.
I'm only saying this because I installed your mod, went to build a mech, and still could find no use for AC except the AC20 (which I still think isn't very good, but at least the punch CAN be worth it).
LRMs are not strictly better, even smaller calibers like the 10 or 5. It depends on what you want to do. If you want to farm Assaults with knockdowns, LRMs are king because they are the only weapon that can reach 50:50 stab and normal damage with ++ weapons. They are ideal for it.
ACs are more pinpoint. Killing somebody is easier this way. A single AC10 with one + dmg mod can also headshot your pilot, which is quite handy if you consider that you can reach up to 18% hit chance for a cockpit on a knocked down mech with a maxed pilot.
Interestingly, if you have an 18% head shot, you're more likely to kill the pilot with LRM10's then AC10's. AC10 will take on average 5 shots, whereas the LRM10 will take on average 4 salvos.
I think AC2 and 5s are just completely outclassed by LRMs, but maybe I'm wrong.
Thats not quite right. LRMs have a mechanic that disables additional head hits from salvos.
For example, it doesn't matter if you use 5 or 100 rockets in your attack, you can only inflict up to 1 head hit with your LRMs. SRMs roll independent, but LRMs use a Cluster Table. (see here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/clustering-and-hit-tables.1073700/)
This Cluster Table gives additional chance to hit surrounding hit locations based on the first successful hit, while disabling head hits, even if the first rocket was a cockpit hit.
This mechanic is "Cluster", a term i used on the spreadsheet, since it was done to reducing sandpapering the entire mech with low damage hits. A SRM doesnt have that, it rolls independent.
A single AC10 can kill an cockpit more easily, the same is true for an AC5. 2 hits are enough, and both ACs or LRMs have the same hit chance (up to 18%). But you need 61 damage to kill a Cockpit, the LRMs need 16 hits. The ACs only 1 or 2.
I have to ask, are you Khorban? Because he also made a balance mod with the exact same changes, and has a spreadsheet with the same proposed values for future tech, so I just want to make sure he's not a copy-cat.
Yeah, I took time to read through his description and he did indeed heavily base his mod off of yours, although his has a evasion buff included as well (-15% to hit per pip). I'm starting to make my own weapon changes now, I've got the pulse lasers ignoring 2 pips of evasion but less range.
I did some changes to "hit values" in my next mod, which reduces the hit penalty of stationary or knocked down targets, but i tested now 5 different versions of modifying the normal hit values. Thats is a fairly complex thing, since a basic change will do a LOT. The whole pilot skill and and normal hit chance values are based on a hidden dice roll. Changing these numbers from f.e. 1/40 to something like 1/50 changes basically everything, since the hit chance reducing or bonus of weapons or evasion charges are based on that.
Right now, I just did some minor changes to remove some bonus hit chance from the pilot tree (like 5 or 10% less) and redistribute the existing boni.
This has the advantage that you're not touching everything. Evasion has still some meaning, even 3 pips are noticeable, and Laser Accuracy boni are useful, even on Assaults.
Changing the amount of hit chance on pips from 10% to 15% can result in up to 90% reduced chance to hit on lights (which hit 6 EC very easily), while Assault Mechs can profit too much. A sprinting 105 unit Assault (Atlas, KBC, and so on) can generate up to 4 EC, with a 5th from the skill tree. That would be 75% reduced Hit chance. Thats a lot.
Reducing the hit chance bonus from the Skill tree by 5 or 10% may reduce the hit chance of normal weapons down to 90-85% on a standing target, enough to make + accuracy really powerful. These are now not very desirable.
Buffing Evasion Charges may sound like the same, but it isnt. This way, you promote a gameplay style where you have to move to generate defense, which lowers the desirability of Bulwark. You are basically nerfing Bulwark, which may be warranted, but i think you already give up a lot by not moving. Eating AC20 or other high stability damage hits is a big thread since you are generally dont want to "kill" the target, but knock them down and then focus fire or let them stand up for more knock downs.
Evasion Charges already make it very hard to inflict a high degree of Stab damage in one go, if you have +2 to Unsteady threshold. If you don't know, you have to make your target unsteady first, before knocking them down. Inflicting up to 80 Stab damage on a Mech with 30% less hit chance (3 EC) is not easy, changing this to 45 (with 15% EC) makes it better then Bulwark. Reducing the base to hit chance of highly skilled enemies down by 5, 10 or even 15% is a better way to deal with it. It allows you to keep Bulwark as a useful skill.
Sorry for the long text :) This is a complex issue, one i try to solve for my next mod since Thursday last week and every implementation has a giant tail of unwanted changes i really dont want.
Hey, right now i'm thinking about another completely different versions. Its not as much as a balance mod, more an overhaul with all the old and coming weapons until civil war. I tweaked some numbers already, but i wanted to wait what HBSs DLC plans are (like in Era, new Tech/Mechs ect).
There will be probably a fairly big change how SRM, SSRM, Medium and Small Lasers and all small caliber weapons like Magshots work and how the bigger weapons (Thunderbolt Missiles, LRMs, ACs, their special versions, all the Gauss and big energy weapon) are structured to make bigger versions work better.
I plan to make this for some sort of bigger picture mod collection that will include basically a rework of the game. Not a total conversion, more like something i'd like to play in the tabletop. But this isnt something that will be done in the next week or two :)
Appreciate the really neat spreadsheet and the well-thought out explanations behind the balance changes here. Your discussion below with Forefal over pinpoint damage was really interesting as well, though I have to say, pinpoint damage is only good when you can kill stuff outright, one shot components off or punch entirely through armor that it exposes structure for crits. Practically, this only works against vehicles or in the early game where lights are very common, or mechs with 25/50% armor, and the only AC weapon with a reasonable success rate of doing that is the AC/20. That’s not gonna happen late game though against fully serviced heavies/assaults. High relative armor/structure values, increased usage of Bulwark combined with location RNG means those mechs can tank for days to the point that pinpoint damage of AC2/5/10s eventually becomes spread damage over multiple rounds.
Personally, I think AC2/10s need better dmg/ton to stay relevant late game, while LRM stability damage is way too strong now. Aside from that, I like the changes you did to the LL, PPC and SRM4. Good stuff and hope to see more coming!
Thanks. There is more coming, its just not easy to get it working on all the different versions ;) Ive got plans for 4 more mods, all of them compatible. This will be an interesting spring/summer
thanks for the suggestion. Generally, LosTech Weapons are already better then their normal counterparts. I simply did not list them separately, except the line "Pulse and ER-Models got adjusted as well, but retain their specific uniqueness."
This means: - Pulse always do +5 damage more then a base model and has a +5% hit chance, with the increased weight they have as da default value. Heat is the same - ER has always the same damage and heat as a base model, just an increased range and +25% Crit chance.
I reduced the heat massively - this is already in my first version. I however discovered a bug with Large Pulse Lasers and ER Larges, i apparently did not correct their value. I will correct this in version 1.1, coming very soon. This means, a ER or Pulse Laser may be as good (or bad, however you see it) as some ++ or +++ weapons. I wont change this. Even with the problem of of increased weight, that some Pulse Lasers have. I will however tackle the number of ++ or +++ weapons in my upcoming mod.
I share your concern about the "power" of + weapons. I need further feedback and testing on how strong it should be. Are +10% stat boost "enough" or should it stay at 20/25%? This is something i will revisit when we have more Lostech or generally advanced weapons in the game.
Primary Example. ER L Laser vs. Magna L Laser +++ ER - Max Range 570, Damage 45, Heat 25 Magna +++ - Max Range 450, Damage 55 !!, Heat 25 !
Same Heat, 10 more Damage, Range is useful but not worth the trade off.
ER PPC vs PPC +++ Has the same problem: ER - Range 690, Dam 55, Heat 45 Tiegart ++ - Range 540, Dam 55!, Heat 35 AND +4 Acc Donal ++ - Range 540, Dam 65 !!!, Heat 35 !
Both Tiegart and Donal inflict the PPC -Acc Debuff. The ER PPC in 1.1 still does not (lacks the lines for the debuff compared to the other PPCs)
That's what I mean about the LosTech is worse than the ++ and +++ versions. I'll have to look at Pulse later.
Hey, as i wrote, i wont change this "now". I fixed a few errors i had with Large Pulse and ER Lasers, but i wont touch +++ weapons now. Pulse or ER are only beaten by some +++ weapons or very specifiy ++ combinations.
Just curiosity, why go for lower damage on the small and medium lasers instead of higher heat? Do you feel that they are balanced outside of boats? I like to keep lore loadouts on my mechs so I want to be sure that they won't be more underpowered than before.
this is a topic with much to talk about. I'll break it down, because there are a few reasons.
1) There are not a lot of Mechs, that got a straight nerf from this change. Mainly, its the stock loadouts from the Grasshopper, Black Knight and Hunchback 4P. While the first two are not so much affected (they also use 1 or 2 Large Lasers, which are now much better), the Hunchback 4P is affected the most. I'd argue that this chassis is probably the strongest BattleTech (HBS) Medium in the game since he can fire heat neutral 8 Medium Lasers, which results in 200 damage, or up to 280 if you include ++ Medium Lasers that have 2 damage mods. Compared to any other Mech, even the normal Hunchback 4G (100+2*25), its at least 25% more damage. This mod affects enemy Mechs as well - so this nerf is not one-sided.
2) I think with this damage nerf, Medium Lasers are still very good. They are just not as good. If you have, for example, 6 tons on your Mech left - and you have either 4 Missile Hardpoints or 4 Energy Hardpoints, its best to use the remaining tonnage to install Mediums Lasers, if you have the vanilla weapon values. Why? Because they do 100 damage with 4 Slots and use very little heat. SRMs, the natural rival as a low tonnage short range weapon, is much worse. Yes - it doesnt need as much Heat Sinks, but the requirement for tonnage is steep, since you still need Ammo. This is a fact that is also true for MGs. In high numbers, they are viable if you take only 1 ton of ammo. But in small numbers (anything 4 or less), they are just not good enough compared to the Laser alternative.
In the base game, the problems of the SRM2 are worse since the SRM4 is plainly broken. With only 1 ton more and 2 heat extra, you gain 16 extra damage (+100%). With the example i used above, its better to install 2 SRM4 (4t), 1t of Ammo and 1 Single Heat Sink instead of 4 SRM2 (4t), 1t of Ammo and 1 SHS. They produce less heat for the same damage and are better if you can use 3 or even 4 of them. But still - even in this example, they loose to the Medium Laser. The SRMs would do 64 Damage if they hit. Mediums are still at 100 damage, 56% more. You may produce more heat, but 4 SRM2 are still 24 Heat compared to 40 with ML.
With my mod, its still 64 damage with SRMs, but you have a smaller gap (4 ML do 80 damage) and you have the Stab damage and a lower generated heat to justify taking SRMs, while the Mediums still have their inherent +5% to Hit Accuracy Buff and a higher total damage.
3) Why not higher heat? Because you'd have to increase it by a fairly large margin. If you have 25 damage, it would need at least 14 heat to make them similar to how they are now in my mod (around 4.0 damage per adjusted weight). You would still pack a punch, but making them 40% more heat inefficient would break the same Mechs that i mentioned in 1). A Hunchback 4P would not be able to fire his Medium Lasers since they produce 120 heat and the 23 Single Heat Sinks could only dissipate 69.
4) If you have the Hardpoints, its better to use Mediums instead of nearly any other weapon. Lets compare the AC20 and Medium Laser. With my mod, you would need 5 Medium Lasers to reach the same damage as an AC20. A AC20 needs around 8.33 Heat Sinks and 1 ton of ammo (maybe even 2 but lets use 1 now), for a total of 23.33 tons. 5 Medium Lasers are 5 tons plus 16.66 tons in Heat Sinks for a total of 21.66 tons. They are lighter, have a better hit chance, not to hit penalty when you refire it and if you have a 80% hit chance, only 1 or 2 will miss while you still have a guaranteed damage of at least 3 ML. The big advantage of the AC20 is, that you can negate the to hit modifier with a high Guts stat and you have an insane pinpoint damage.
With ML, as well as with LRMs or SRMs, you tend to sandpaper the enemy. With an AC20, even if you hit a Guarded and Entrenched target, it still hurts. And you have a LOT of Stab damage as well. In my opinion, this is a choice - both weapon systems have their advantage. But if you take vanilla into account, with only 4 Medium Lasers to reach the same overall damage for a total of 17.33 tons, the question is now very clear. You want to take Medium Lasers. And not only that, you can take 2 Medium Lasers with enough Heat Sinks on top of that. Thats why the Hunchback 4P is strong.
All of these points are the reason why i'd prefer to nerf the Medium Laser, one of the best weapons in the entire game (Tabletop or HBS) and adjust the Small Laser instead of touching 5 other systems, that are in a somewhat similar spot.
It does, thank you. I'm curious to see how future Lostech will be balanced in the game, especially for equipment like Ultra-ACs and MASC, which in TT have a chance to permanently jam and disable you respectively.
Me as well. I have some base numbers i think would be appropriate (see the google doc link from the description page) but without any special mechanics i cant implement them - at least not like i want.
ER lasers: I think they should have the accuracy boost the normal lasers get, but be hotter, like they are in TT. MGs: MGs currently do 5 projectiles of 3 damage each, not 3 projectiles of 5 damage, although I'm not sure if you changed this. LMG: Range is 180 meters in TT, but 150 range could be acceptable if it's too much better than the normal MG, damage should be maybe 5 projectiles of 2 damage. HMG: Either have 60 range and 5x5 damage, or 90 range and 5x4 damage, considering it's twice as heavy. HPPC: It doesn't lose damage over range in TT, maybe increase stb damage to 30, but give it refire accuracy malus. Ultra-ACs: If you go double RoF, it gives -5 or 10 accuracy for those shots, if jam is rolled, maybe make the weapon unfireable for 3 turns maybe? Multi-ammo weapons (LB-X/ATM/MML): I'm sure the game will easily support ammo-switching, so we can give different stats for different ammo types. RACs: These will be extremely difficult to balance, and would they allow anywhere from 1 to 6 rounds to be fired in a single turn, or have less options? HGauss: have effective range at 300, with it dealing 75 damage after that. Maybe -15% refire accuracy malus? Magshot: Tough to balance, maybe 10 damage with 270 range, or 15 damage with 210 range? SSRMs: In TT they only fire if the launcher confirms that all missiles hit. Maybe have them only fire only if 50% or more of the missiles will hit, while still having a much higher accuracy bonus over SRMs? MRMs: Looks pretty good as it is, with a pretty crappy accuracy rating since they have no homing. Thunderbolts: Their main weakness in TT is their susceptibility to AMS, although your idea for AMS simply reducing missile accuracy makes this less of an issue. Rocket launchers: I think the damage per missile should go to 4, and balance that with low accuracy. Clan weapons: Maybe something for me to discuss later.
Thank you for making this mod. It sure as heck beats the ones that just blindly copy tabletop values (where Autocannons are worthless) and instead offers us a nice trade-off for guns. Cheers, mate :)
38 comments
Large Pulse Laser -> 5 tonnes ( instead 7 tonnes ), compare to Large Laser = 5 tonnes
Medium Pulse Laser -> 1 tonnes ( instead 2 tonnes ), compare to Medium Laser = 1 tonnes
For LRM, having that type of damage/ton AND massive range AND indirect fire AND stability damage? I mean, it seems easily the best weapon. I was thinking about modding missiles myself and reducing the damage from 4 to 3 per hit.
As far as AC's, yes they don't generate as much heat, but we also have 50 to 80 free heat production before we even have an issue. This means the heat generating weapons can output significantly more damage initially until they have to run heat neutral so they dont' overheat. Plus lasers get an accuracy bonus and there is no ammo to blow up.
Great mod, and I plan on using it, but it still seems silly to me to use anything at range other than LRM and AC's seem a subpar choice to alternatives.
As an additional recommendations, I'd love to see lasers impart heat damage like flamers as well. But maybe that's just me. :)
LRMs overpowered compared to AC: No, the AC are pinpoint damage, while the LRMs spread over more components. Depending on "what" you want to accomplish, they can be a very bad weapon. Also, LRMs are not that strong if the enemy mech uses guarded and cover. Getting bombarded by 1-2 damage projectiles doesnt really do much if you have over 1400 armor, or even 1800 on a 100t mech.
We have 30 free heat production, not 50 or 80. I get that you probably mean the heat bar instead of the normal dissipation every round (what i mean), but i had fights where i fired every round with everything i have with a net heat build up of something like 6 or 7, and i got close to overheating because the AI had 10+ assault class units.
About Energy weapons that can frontload damage: This doesnt matter if you have assaults. They just shrug off PPCs or Large Lasers, even with WBM and you will be hot. Ideally you dont want to disable 70% of your weapon tonnage after 2 salvos because youre too hot. Heavy weapons are already fairly inefficient, since you can just take 3 Medium Lasers and do more damage then a PPC. And with the insane amount of objects and line of sight breakers, its not hard to get close enough to use them.
Thanks for your comment. I think - Energy weapons are now at the same level as ACs. Just have a look at the Column K in my Google Spreadsheet ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/171yWruL0t0X0JipwPrgKC-bpWg3Nw0QrtxzLr0vUMe0 ). As you can see, a PPC does similar damage per adjusted weight as an AC10, but has more range AND a very nice 5% hit debuff. Large Laser and AC10 are even closer together with a nice Accuracy buff and debuff between them, as well as more range on the AC5, that needs Ammo. Its a decision - not an automatically choice since one is clearly better. Well - at least in my eyes :)
About lasers doing heat damage: Thats not how they work and i rather stick with the rich universe. Lasers are a powerful heat source, since it literally melts the armor where it hits. You can read as much in the novels. But if the beam stops, there is no lingering heat, like with the napalm-like Inferno SRMs or Flamer. Flamer work btw so well because they heat the air around the Mech, which negates practically every ability for the heat sinks to dump their heat (thats the reason why Heat Sinks dont work in a vacuum). The goal of flamers is to increase heat of the target, which they do. Basically - same goal, different way to get there. Not that it matters, its a nice idea, but i wont touch that.
For heat production I'm talking about how much heat you can build before you overheat. A +10 heat weapon can be fired 5 to 8 times in a single round for no penalty, as an example.
Hope you don't mind, but let's go into more detail. Let's compare LRM10 vs AC5.
Damage:40 v 45
Range: 630 v 540
Heat:10 v 10
Stability: 20 v 10
Ammo:similar
Weight: 5 v 8
OK, at 45 damage, unless it's a really lightly armored unit, you're going to need multiple shots which is going to end up as spread damage. (This isn't to mention the ability to target a side or called shots that gives LRM a significant improvement). So while the cluster effect is present for LRM, it's really pretty similar for everything not AC20 or 10 (and even AC10 is questionable). In comparison, both weapons are pretty similar except for 2 points: 5 more damage for AC and 3 more tons. There is NO WAY I'm going to upgrade an LRM10 for 3 tons to add 5 damage. And as your spreadsheet notes, it's 3.65 to 4.29 effective damage/ton. Then add on the extra range, DOUBLE the stability damage (and for lesser weight too), and INDIRECT FIRE. Give me a lance using LRM10 and it will devastate a lance using AC5s. The AC2 is even worse, whereas the LRM5/15/20 get better! The only saving benefit of the AC is it has slightly lower minimum range and that the damage is focused. But at 45 damage, the focused damage is going to be spread out. Which mech has even just 90 damage on one compartment so it could at least be 2 shot? Gotta be pretty lightly armoured. And getting both shots to hit a single area is tough without called shot. But with called shot the LRM's become focused as well! So what's the point of using ACs? I don't see it.
I'm only saying this because I installed your mod, went to build a mech, and still could find no use for AC except the AC20 (which I still think isn't very good, but at least the punch CAN be worth it).
Let me know if I'm off on this.
ACs are more pinpoint. Killing somebody is easier this way. A single AC10 with one + dmg mod can also headshot your pilot, which is quite handy if you consider that you can reach up to 18% hit chance for a cockpit on a knocked down mech with a maxed pilot.
I think AC2 and 5s are just completely outclassed by LRMs, but maybe I'm wrong.
For example, it doesn't matter if you use 5 or 100 rockets in your attack, you can only inflict up to 1 head hit with your LRMs. SRMs roll independent, but LRMs use a Cluster Table. (see here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/clustering-and-hit-tables.1073700/)
This Cluster Table gives additional chance to hit surrounding hit locations based on the first successful hit, while disabling head hits, even if the first rocket was a cockpit hit.
This mechanic is "Cluster", a term i used on the spreadsheet, since it was done to reducing sandpapering the entire mech with low damage hits. A SRM doesnt have that, it rolls independent.
A single AC10 can kill an cockpit more easily, the same is true for an AC5. 2 hits are enough, and both ACs or LRMs have the same hit chance (up to 18%). But you need 61 damage to kill a Cockpit, the LRMs need 16 hits. The ACs only 1 or 2.
Maybe he saw it there and adapted some of this for his own?
Right now, I just did some minor changes to remove some bonus hit chance from the pilot tree (like 5 or 10% less) and redistribute the existing boni.
This has the advantage that you're not touching everything. Evasion has still some meaning, even 3 pips are noticeable, and Laser Accuracy boni are useful, even on Assaults.
Changing the amount of hit chance on pips from 10% to 15% can result in up to 90% reduced chance to hit on lights (which hit 6 EC very easily), while Assault Mechs can profit too much. A sprinting 105 unit Assault (Atlas, KBC, and so on) can generate up to 4 EC, with a 5th from the skill tree. That would be 75% reduced Hit chance. Thats a lot.
Reducing the hit chance bonus from the Skill tree by 5 or 10% may reduce the hit chance of normal weapons down to 90-85% on a standing target, enough to make + accuracy really powerful. These are now not very desirable.
Buffing Evasion Charges may sound like the same, but it isnt. This way, you promote a gameplay style where you have to move to generate defense, which lowers the desirability of Bulwark. You are basically nerfing Bulwark, which may be warranted, but i think you already give up a lot by not moving. Eating AC20 or other high stability damage hits is a big thread since you are generally dont want to "kill" the target, but knock them down and then focus fire or let them stand up for more knock downs.
Evasion Charges already make it very hard to inflict a high degree of Stab damage in one go, if you have +2 to Unsteady threshold. If you don't know, you have to make your target unsteady first, before knocking them down. Inflicting up to 80 Stab damage on a Mech with 30% less hit chance (3 EC) is not easy, changing this to 45 (with 15% EC) makes it better then Bulwark. Reducing the base to hit chance of highly skilled enemies down by 5, 10 or even 15% is a better way to deal with it. It allows you to keep Bulwark as a useful skill.
Sorry for the long text :) This is a complex issue, one i try to solve for my next mod since Thursday last week and every implementation has a giant tail of unwanted changes i really dont want.
This will be unpopular but I think M Lasers need to be nerfed with a little more heat?
Any thoughts on ACs? Like nerfing the AC5 (unpopular) or buffing the AC2 and AC10 damage? Or increasing AC20 heat?
There will be probably a fairly big change how SRM, SSRM, Medium and Small Lasers and all small caliber weapons like Magshots work and how the bigger weapons (Thunderbolt Missiles, LRMs, ACs, their special versions, all the Gauss and big energy weapon) are structured to make bigger versions work better.
I plan to make this for some sort of bigger picture mod collection that will include basically a rework of the game. Not a total conversion, more like something i'd like to play in the tabletop. But this isnt something that will be done in the next week or two :)
Personally, I think AC2/10s need better dmg/ton to stay relevant late game, while LRM stability damage is way too strong now. Aside from that, I like the changes you did to the LL, PPC and SRM4. Good stuff and hope to see more coming!
Your mod already fixes the other problem, since everything but the Gauss is a Laser/PPC.
thanks for the suggestion. Generally, LosTech Weapons are already better then their normal counterparts. I simply did not list them separately, except the line "Pulse and ER-Models got adjusted as well, but retain their specific uniqueness."
This means:
- Pulse always do +5 damage more then a base model and has a +5% hit chance, with the increased weight they have as da default value. Heat is the same
- ER has always the same damage and heat as a base model, just an increased range and +25% Crit chance.
I reduced the heat massively - this is already in my first version. I however discovered a bug with Large Pulse Lasers and ER Larges, i apparently did not correct their value. I will correct this in version 1.1, coming very soon. This means, a ER or Pulse Laser may be as good (or bad, however you see it) as some ++ or +++ weapons. I wont change this. Even with the problem of of increased weight, that some Pulse Lasers have. I will however tackle the number of ++ or +++ weapons in my upcoming mod.
I share your concern about the "power" of + weapons. I need further feedback and testing on how strong it should be. Are +10% stat boost "enough" or should it stay at 20/25%? This is something i will revisit when we have more Lostech or generally advanced weapons in the game.
Primary Example. ER L Laser vs. Magna L Laser +++
ER - Max Range 570, Damage 45, Heat 25
Magna +++ - Max Range 450, Damage 55 !!, Heat 25 !
Same Heat, 10 more Damage, Range is useful but not worth the trade off.
ER PPC vs PPC +++ Has the same problem:
ER - Range 690, Dam 55, Heat 45
Tiegart ++ - Range 540, Dam 55!, Heat 35 AND +4 Acc
Donal ++ - Range 540, Dam 65 !!!, Heat 35 !
Both Tiegart and Donal inflict the PPC -Acc Debuff. The ER PPC in 1.1 still does not (lacks the lines for the debuff compared to the other PPCs)
That's what I mean about the LosTech is worse than the ++ and +++ versions. I'll have to look at Pulse later.
A base weapon should be something like Age of War era or what budget companies build.
+ should be early Star League era or what the mainstream companies build.
++ should be mid Star League-era or what the top-of-the-line companies build.
+++ should what's left of the late Star League era, which is why they're so rare and expensive.
Frankly I would just prefer that we didn't have improved weapons whatsoever, but it is what it is.
this is a topic with much to talk about. I'll break it down, because there are a few reasons.
1) There are not a lot of Mechs, that got a straight nerf from this change. Mainly, its the stock loadouts from the Grasshopper, Black Knight and Hunchback 4P. While the first two are not so much affected (they also use 1 or 2 Large Lasers, which are now much better), the Hunchback 4P is affected the most. I'd argue that this chassis is probably the strongest BattleTech (HBS) Medium in the game since he can fire heat neutral 8 Medium Lasers, which results in 200 damage, or up to 280 if you include ++ Medium Lasers that have 2 damage mods. Compared to any other Mech, even the normal Hunchback 4G (100+2*25), its at least 25% more damage. This mod affects enemy Mechs as well - so this nerf is not one-sided.
2) I think with this damage nerf, Medium Lasers are still very good. They are just not as good. If you have, for example, 6 tons on your Mech left - and you have either 4 Missile Hardpoints or 4 Energy Hardpoints, its best to use the remaining tonnage to install Mediums Lasers, if you have the vanilla weapon values. Why? Because they do 100 damage with 4 Slots and use very little heat. SRMs, the natural rival as a low tonnage short range weapon, is much worse. Yes - it doesnt need as much Heat Sinks, but the requirement for tonnage is steep, since you still need Ammo. This is a fact that is also true for MGs. In high numbers, they are viable if you take only 1 ton of ammo. But in small numbers (anything 4 or less), they are just not good enough compared to the Laser alternative.
In the base game, the problems of the SRM2 are worse since the SRM4 is plainly broken. With only 1 ton more and 2 heat extra, you gain 16 extra damage (+100%). With the example i used above, its better to install 2 SRM4 (4t), 1t of Ammo and 1 Single Heat Sink instead of 4 SRM2 (4t), 1t of Ammo and 1 SHS. They produce less heat for the same damage and are better if you can use 3 or even 4 of them. But still - even in this example, they loose to the Medium Laser. The SRMs would do 64 Damage if they hit. Mediums are still at 100 damage, 56% more. You may produce more heat, but 4 SRM2 are still 24 Heat compared to 40 with ML.
With my mod, its still 64 damage with SRMs, but you have a smaller gap (4 ML do 80 damage) and you have the Stab damage and a lower generated heat to justify taking SRMs, while the Mediums still have their inherent +5% to Hit Accuracy Buff and a higher total damage.
3) Why not higher heat? Because you'd have to increase it by a fairly large margin. If you have 25 damage, it would need at least 14 heat to make them similar to how they are now in my mod (around 4.0 damage per adjusted weight). You would still pack a punch, but making them 40% more heat inefficient would break the same Mechs that i mentioned in 1). A Hunchback 4P would not be able to fire his Medium Lasers since they produce 120 heat and the 23 Single Heat Sinks could only dissipate 69.
4) If you have the Hardpoints, its better to use Mediums instead of nearly any other weapon. Lets compare the AC20 and Medium Laser. With my mod, you would need 5 Medium Lasers to reach the same damage as an AC20. A AC20 needs around 8.33 Heat Sinks and 1 ton of ammo (maybe even 2 but lets use 1 now), for a total of 23.33 tons. 5 Medium Lasers are 5 tons plus 16.66 tons in Heat Sinks for a total of 21.66 tons. They are lighter, have a better hit chance, not to hit penalty when you refire it and if you have a 80% hit chance, only 1 or 2 will miss while you still have a guaranteed damage of at least 3 ML. The big advantage of the AC20 is, that you can negate the to hit modifier with a high Guts stat and you have an insane pinpoint damage.
With ML, as well as with LRMs or SRMs, you tend to sandpaper the enemy. With an AC20, even if you hit a Guarded and Entrenched target, it still hurts. And you have a LOT of Stab damage as well. In my opinion, this is a choice - both weapon systems have their advantage. But if you take vanilla into account, with only 4 Medium Lasers to reach the same overall damage for a total of 17.33 tons, the question is now very clear. You want to take Medium Lasers. And not only that, you can take 2 Medium Lasers with enough Heat Sinks on top of that. Thats why the Hunchback 4P is strong.
All of these points are the reason why i'd prefer to nerf the Medium Laser, one of the best weapons in the entire game (Tabletop or HBS) and adjust the Small Laser instead of touching 5 other systems, that are in a somewhat similar spot.
I hope that answered your question.
o7
ER lasers: I think they should have the accuracy boost the normal lasers get, but be hotter, like they are in TT.
MGs: MGs currently do 5 projectiles of 3 damage each, not 3 projectiles of 5 damage, although I'm not sure if you changed this.
LMG: Range is 180 meters in TT, but 150 range could be acceptable if it's too much better than the normal MG, damage should be maybe 5 projectiles of 2 damage.
HMG: Either have 60 range and 5x5 damage, or 90 range and 5x4 damage, considering it's twice as heavy.
HPPC: It doesn't lose damage over range in TT, maybe increase stb damage to 30, but give it refire accuracy malus.
Ultra-ACs: If you go double RoF, it gives -5 or 10 accuracy for those shots, if jam is rolled, maybe make the weapon unfireable for 3 turns maybe?
Multi-ammo weapons (LB-X/ATM/MML): I'm sure the game will easily support ammo-switching, so we can give different stats for different ammo types.
RACs: These will be extremely difficult to balance, and would they allow anywhere from 1 to 6 rounds to be fired in a single turn, or have less options?
HGauss: have effective range at 300, with it dealing 75 damage after that. Maybe -15% refire accuracy malus?
Magshot: Tough to balance, maybe 10 damage with 270 range, or 15 damage with 210 range?
SSRMs: In TT they only fire if the launcher confirms that all missiles hit. Maybe have them only fire only if 50% or more of the missiles will hit, while still having a much higher accuracy bonus over SRMs?
MRMs: Looks pretty good as it is, with a pretty crappy accuracy rating since they have no homing.
Thunderbolts: Their main weakness in TT is their susceptibility to AMS, although your idea for AMS simply reducing missile accuracy makes this less of an issue.
Rocket launchers: I think the damage per missile should go to 4, and balance that with low accuracy.
Clan weapons: Maybe something for me to discuss later.