Depends on which mods you use. I use mods in which 2-3 shots means you are dead and a headshot means instadeath so, as I said, their threat level varies greatly depending on your configuration. And you can easily sneak past most but not all of them, especially if you want to save Amata and/or don't put points on sneaking and again, your mod configuration. But that's not even the point either. If you do sneak past all the guards, then you wouldn't find it jarring that they fight you to the death even when they are losing. It is simply not realistic.
Finally, the mod is here to add to the immersion and roleplaying. It personally bugged me that one of my good karma characters was shooting them on the legs to stop the guards / make them run away without killing them and they kept coming at me even though their hp points were low. It didn't make sense. The lack of self-preservation was jarring and destroyed my suspension of disbelief, hence this mod. ;)
I am using the TTW version, and I have an issue: For some reason, with this mod installed, Butch ALWAYS goes after Officer Kendall after I either help his mom with the roaches or not. Kind of ironic, considering this mod's concept.
To fix this, what kind of confidence should both these characters have to avoid this predicament? Instead of a fight, Officer Kendall should ask "Butch, have you seen the doc's kid?" to which he says he hasn't, like it happened to me in vanilla Fallout 3 back in the day. I was sneaking inside Butch's quarters in "[Caution]" mode, making it a pretty immersive event. This mod should allow this to happen as well!
EDIT: Just witnessed Officer Kendall cowering in a corner and fleeing from an overly confident Butch chasing him with a switchblade! Hilarious, but unintended. Definitely would love a fix!
I didn't create the TTW version so I cannot replicate what you mention. As far as my experiments go in the original version of the mod, But only attacks Officer Kendall IF you help him because then he considers a good friend and IF Officer Kendall is in aggro mode towards you (meaning you are not successfully sneaking). If you are successfully sneaking and you don't help Butch, he won't attack Kendall. He actually will call the guards to go after you if you refuse to help him. And this has been the case in all my playthroughs. Maybe the TTW version is bugged. Still, a switchblade can kill very easily if you know how to use it! Butch really cares about his friends ;)
Great mod. As a roleplaying feature - gorgeous. It was always unpleasant to kill people under whose influence you lived in good relations, after all, life in the vault is friendly and everyone knows each other.
Yeah, felt weird being forced to kill the very people you have been living with all your life without any other option. It makes sense that you are forced to defend yourself if cornered but kill? Too much.
I like the idea here, but the execution is way off. The whole point of the intro sequence is that your build doesn't end up as a beginner's trap, as in if you didn't pick certain skills you aren't hard-locked out of going through the game. This is why even at a minimum you'll be able to lockpick and hack successfully. Changing that screws things up if you don't know in advance to tag a skill just for that instance. The Big Book of Science is helpful, but numerous mods change the way the books work, so with FWE for example it doesn't let you bypass the terminal, pretty much requiring you to use the console. If you gotta cheat, why even use the mod? Then I tried to pick up the books, thinking maybe one of them gave you the code as a secret, and I CTD'd.
Granted not everyone uses FWE or similar mods, but I think in general changing the skills and item placements around is pointless and just adds needless frustration, and should be made optional to the much more impactful Confidence changes so it can work better with other mods. All that said, I like the idea of the mod, and it'd be great to have a version that just changes the guards' Confidences.
I play with 200 mods and FWE is one of them. I don't have the problem you mention. I was always able to get out of Vault 111 even without tagging Science or Lockpicking. There is always a workaround and a key somewhere. I made sure of it. Regarding the CTD. No idea. I couldn't replicate your problem. It works fine to me and nobody else has reported anything of the sort.
PS: If you still have problems, you can always download the alternative file where Amata gives you the key to the Overseer's room when you wake up ;)
Of course but... that's not the point of the mod. The point is for them to behave in a more realistic fashion. Aslo, in vanilla it makes no sense to stop and hack computers and pick up items while you have guards shooting at you, don't you think? Makes more sense for them to run from a threat when wounded ;)
Did you remove the keys as well as remove the locks? I was trying to stealth my way out and while I did not have time to do a huge search+didn't want the Overseer and his crony to find out I was leaving, I couldn't find any keys and had to unlock two doors with console trying to escape. Not that I wasn't trying to play the mod legitimately, it's just I ended up getting the attention of the Overseer and the guard with him once Amata left and they found their fellow guard stumbling around for help. I do appreciate the mod, but maybe there should be a way to get the key without directly confronting the Overseer? Because I suspect if you did remove a key, you probably left the only one with the Overseer. And while your changes do change the dynamic well, it should still serve as an easy challenge as a beginner "dungeon".
Still, love all the mods you've made. If anything I could easily make the above change for myself so it's no worry whether or not you'd want to do that. I also made TTW conversions for this and your No Lying Intro mod. If you want I could send you the .esp files.
Hey rainvendor. Yes, I moved things around a bit ;)
Spoilers
The Overseer still has the Overseer's office key but not the password. There is only one password copy now since it would be unlikely for the Overseer to walk around with an extra copy of his terminal password ;)
Also, I tried to make each build count and you can either lockpick your way into the Overseer's room to get the key or get the key by confronting him. But maybe you're right and there is no third option for pure stealth builds who don't want to confront the Overseer and don't have enough lockpicking points either so I'll upload an alternative version this week to give players more options.
Thank you for converting the mods to TTW! That's awesome. Sure, PM me and I'll upload your conversions here ;)
Any other situation and I'd chalk it up to "life doesn't have infinite choices" and accept that I didn't have enough skills to get through, but being the intro I do think there should be an extra option, especially since this is a mod and you have to keep the "new choices" to physical challenges like sneak and cripple/disarm. To just give you a "visual" and maybe help you out, here's the simple events that transpired leaving the vault I had:
-Woken up, grabbed stuff, left room -I tried crippling the guard's legs with the help of the roaches. As he ran to me I was able to knock him down(I use Awesome Cripple Effects for NV). But unfortunately one roach was left and killed him. Oh well, technically not my kill. -Yada yada yada, helped Butch and all that. -Snuck crippled one guard. He was cowardly so he just ran for help. Thanks to ACE, he fell down quite a lot and gave me plenty of time to search the rooms near Jonas. -Couldn't find anything in the usual areas, Overseer finished interogating Amata, guards are now at alert once they see their crippled friend. -I eventually am spotted, and am stuck in the previously mentioned area as they search the area. They are across the hall so it doesn't take long for the last healthy guard to find me. -I cripple him, and he's now chasing me while falling over every few seconds after standing back up.
That's about where I was "forced" to use the console to unlock things. In the roleplay of it, I couldn't go and start chatting up the overseer with a crippled guard(s) following me. I hope that gives you an idea of how one could get "stuck" with the mod. I could have talked to the Overseer sure, but I would have preferred another way out without trying to talk to the guy ordering guards to find and kill me.
I wonder if you could add another option to Amata after she talks to her father and goes into her room to cry about it. you could tell her that you couldnt find a way into the terminal and she could say she took the key from his room during interrogation, or something like that. That could be a good option since the time it took me to realize the keys weren't anywhere where I thought they were, Amata was running back my way. Would work as a natural option once the player realizes they realize they don't have the skills for the door(if they are in the same situation I was.)
Sorry if the post was too long, I'll send you the files in a bit.
Thank you, that post was helpful. When I was playing myself, I tend to either help Amata or simply the crippled guards alert the rest so roleplaying wise I don't see a problem with confronting the Overseer for a few seconds while his guards are running away. Either that or tagging Lockpicking.
There is also what you mention about life not having infinite choices and I totally agree. One key needs to be in the Overseer's possesion. It wouldn't make sense for him to walk out of his office without his key. I can see how it's plausible for another spare copy to be in his room and obviously I would lock the door, so that's what I did. Now, a third copy seems a bit unlikely to me.
Amata could have one but giving her a copy is also problematic on a gameplay level. Remember, there are instances (where she doesn't have the gun) where you can sneak past the interrogation and you don't get to see her until you open the Vault's door so that wouldn't work for all players as a third option and will punish those (stealth build) for which that third option has been included in the first place! Since if they do it "right" and sneak past the interrogation room undetected, they don't get the third option because Amata would not be sitting down in front of her room. So it's complicated ;)
However, I can relate to your experience and I'll definitely add a third option. Probably not with Amata, but I'll come up with something. ;)
Was there a key in his room? I knew I was already not solving the quest correctly by not confronting the Overseer on purpose, but missing a key in his room is kind of my mistake, since I did console unlock a room and that must have been it. I should probably play the intro escape again at this point, because I was just not paying that much attention it seems. Still, it would have been a door locked beyond my skill, so in the end it would have been confront the Overseer or bust.
So does Amata not leave if you successfully sneak? I did not know that. Must have been the guard that alerted them inside causing Amata to flee to her room then. That would definitely cross out the Amata idea. Well can't hide the key behind a lock, or a computer. Wonder if you could insert different checks to the computer/room. Like a luck check where you just type a random password, or a perception check that allows you to see a switch under the desk that opens the door/hatch, and the switch only spawns if you pass the check. Either way I'm sure you can figure out a good solution to it!
Also I was reading the comments on the No Lying Intro mod. I didn't know that was original music. Very impressive! I thought it was vanilla. I also read about you making another mod. Can't wait! There's this retrospective on Fallout 3 on YT, and one of the things the presenter says is, "When looking at the world of Fallout 3, it all falls apart when you ask yourself, 'What do they eat?'" In my mind, you are the guy who asks these questions about the game, and brings your own answers with your mods.
Yes, Amata doesn't leave unless you are caught sneaking or you tell her to keep the pistol so that's not an option but I think I already found a solution to this dilemma :)
So, at first, I was thinking about leaving an extra key (somewhat hidden) in Amata's room but, that would be a key in each room, one in Amata's and another one in the Overseer's so it wouldn't make sense for one door to be locked and the other open and you get the same key. So, my idea is that Amata gives you the key when you wake up. She is the only other person that knows about the secret exit, probably Alphonse (the Overseer) gave her a copy for her to use in case of emergency or she even made a copy herself. Maybe Alphonse had two copies and she took one. This is the scenario where a third key makes the most sense and there is no way for the player to not have this key since you get it when you finish your conversation with her so, there you go, third option for sneaky players. I will upload it as an alternative file though, since I think the main file presents enough options already for most players ;)
Thank you for the praise on my mods. Yes, "where do people get food?" was one of my first questions when I played Fallout 3 for the first time and one of the first things I wanted to fix as a mod author ;) It is weird Bethesda missed something that basic since that question was already addressed in Fallout 1 & 2 ! Anyway, now it's fixed ;)
I think splitting the mod into two files isn't the most optimal solution, but I also think it's tricky since you gotta preserve balance with the new choices. But hey, in the end it wasn't like my roadblock wasn't due to the mod, but my own stubberness in my roleplay. I would like to try my hand at editing your mod myself to see if I could come up with a solution. In the end it's your mod so you only really need to accomadate my needs as much as YOU'D like to, and not how much I'D like you to. I have my own little projects I'm working on for personal use, but since those projects are TTW related I might end up touching on this mod sooner than later. If I can get an elegant solution to this "problem" I'll message you about it, and maybe we can have a best of both worlds version of this mod.
And that's great! If you ever need to further update this and the other mod, I'll take note and will download it, and since I'll need to convert them to TTW for myself, I'll make sure to send you the files!
No problem, Rainvendor! Sure, take a crack at it if you want. Any ideas are welcomed. I think Amata giving you the key is the most elegant solution I could come up with so far for the alternative file. And I think it should be an alternative file, yes, because, what would be the point for a lot of players in choosing between lockpicking or confronting the Overseer if you get a key to circumvent all that since you wake up? ;)
I'll let you know when it's up. It's being a hectic week.
Maybe but, personally, I tend to start a completely new game when I start a new playthrough so again, personally, these were changes that I always wanted to see in vanilla. And here they are for anybody who appreciates them ;)
The download rate is good too, taken into account that the game is 10 years old and most people don't play Fallout 3 anymore. So I am quite happy with the response. :)
Tip: Try having evil karma before taking the quest from Moira for the 1st time. You'll have a nice dialogue with her. Not particularly related to your mod, but fun anyway.
Hi Bear8u. It would probably need a patch to work with TTW. I am not really sure how the conversion goes but there are tutorials out there if you feel up for it! ;)
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JumpFinally, the mod is here to add to the immersion and roleplaying. It personally bugged me that one of my good karma characters was shooting them on the legs to stop the guards / make them run away without killing them and they kept coming at me even though their hp points were low. It didn't make sense. The lack of self-preservation was jarring and destroyed my suspension of disbelief, hence this mod. ;)
To fix this, what kind of confidence should both these characters have to avoid this predicament? Instead of a fight, Officer Kendall should ask "Butch, have you seen the doc's kid?" to which he says he hasn't, like it happened to me in vanilla Fallout 3 back in the day. I was sneaking inside Butch's quarters in "[Caution]" mode, making it a pretty immersive event. This mod should allow this to happen as well!
EDIT: Just witnessed Officer Kendall cowering in a corner and fleeing from an overly confident Butch chasing him with a switchblade! Hilarious, but unintended. Definitely would love a fix!
Thank you for your kind words and stopping by ;)
Granted not everyone uses FWE or similar mods, but I think in general changing the skills and item placements around is pointless and just adds needless frustration, and should be made optional to the much more impactful Confidence changes so it can work better with other mods. All that said, I like the idea of the mod, and it'd be great to have a version that just changes the guards' Confidences.
PS: If you still have problems, you can always download the alternative file where Amata gives you the key to the Overseer's room when you wake up ;)
Still, love all the mods you've made. If anything I could easily make the above change for myself so it's no worry whether or not you'd want to do that. I also made TTW conversions for this and your No Lying Intro mod. If you want I could send you the .esp files.
Spoilers
The Overseer still has the Overseer's office key but not the password. There is only one password copy now since it would be unlikely for the Overseer to walk around with an extra copy of his terminal password ;)
Also, I tried to make each build count and you can either lockpick your way into the Overseer's room to get the key or get the key by confronting him. But maybe you're right and there is no third option for pure stealth builds who don't want to confront the Overseer and don't have enough lockpicking points either so I'll upload an alternative version this week to give players more options.
Thank you for converting the mods to TTW! That's awesome. Sure, PM me and I'll upload your conversions here ;)
Cheers and thank you for your input :)
-Woken up, grabbed stuff, left room
-I tried crippling the guard's legs with the help of the roaches. As he ran to me I was able to knock him down(I use Awesome Cripple Effects for NV). But unfortunately one roach was left and killed him. Oh well, technically not my kill.
-Yada yada yada, helped Butch and all that.
-Snuck crippled one guard. He was cowardly so he just ran for help. Thanks to ACE, he fell down quite a lot and gave me plenty of time to search the rooms near Jonas.
-Couldn't find anything in the usual areas, Overseer finished interogating Amata, guards are now at alert once they see their crippled friend.
-I eventually am spotted, and am stuck in the previously mentioned area as they search the area. They are across the hall so it doesn't take long for the last healthy guard to find me.
-I cripple him, and he's now chasing me while falling over every few seconds after standing back up.
That's about where I was "forced" to use the console to unlock things. In the roleplay of it, I couldn't go and start chatting up the overseer with a crippled guard(s) following me. I hope that gives you an idea of how one could get "stuck" with the mod. I could have talked to the Overseer sure, but I would have preferred another way out without trying to talk to the guy ordering guards to find and kill me.
I wonder if you could add another option to Amata after she talks to her father and goes into her room to cry about it. you could tell her that you couldnt find a way into the terminal and she could say she took the key from his room during interrogation, or something like that. That could be a good option since the time it took me to realize the keys weren't anywhere where I thought they were, Amata was running back my way. Would work as a natural option once the player realizes they realize they don't have the skills for the door(if they are in the same situation I was.)
Sorry if the post was too long, I'll send you the files in a bit.
There is also what you mention about life not having infinite choices and I totally agree. One key needs to be in the Overseer's possesion. It wouldn't make sense for him to walk out of his office without his key. I can see how it's plausible for another spare copy to be in his room and obviously I would lock the door, so that's what I did. Now, a third copy seems a bit unlikely to me.
Amata could have one but giving her a copy is also problematic on a gameplay level. Remember, there are instances (where she doesn't have the gun) where you can sneak past the interrogation and you don't get to see her until you open the Vault's door so that wouldn't work for all players as a third option and will punish those (stealth build) for which that third option has been included in the first place! Since if they do it "right" and sneak past the interrogation room undetected, they don't get the third option because Amata would not be sitting down in front of her room. So it's complicated ;)
However, I can relate to your experience and I'll definitely add a third option. Probably not with Amata, but I'll come up with something. ;)
Thank you for the files, I'll upload them ASAP.
So does Amata not leave if you successfully sneak? I did not know that. Must have been the guard that alerted them inside causing Amata to flee to her room then. That would definitely cross out the Amata idea. Well can't hide the key behind a lock, or a computer. Wonder if you could insert different checks to the computer/room. Like a luck check where you just type a random password, or a perception check that allows you to see a switch under the desk that opens the door/hatch, and the switch only spawns if you pass the check. Either way I'm sure you can figure out a good solution to it!
Also I was reading the comments on the No Lying Intro mod. I didn't know that was original music. Very impressive! I thought it was vanilla. I also read about you making another mod. Can't wait! There's this retrospective on Fallout 3 on YT, and one of the things the presenter says is, "When looking at the world of Fallout 3, it all falls apart when you ask yourself, 'What do they eat?'" In my mind, you are the guy who asks these questions about the game, and brings your own answers with your mods.
So, at first, I was thinking about leaving an extra key (somewhat hidden) in Amata's room but, that would be a key in each room, one in Amata's and another one in the Overseer's so it wouldn't make sense for one door to be locked and the other open and you get the same key. So, my idea is that Amata gives you the key when you wake up. She is the only other person that knows about the secret exit, probably Alphonse (the Overseer) gave her a copy for her to use in case of emergency or she even made a copy herself. Maybe Alphonse had two copies and she took one. This is the scenario where a third key makes the most sense and there is no way for the player to not have this key since you get it when you finish your conversation with her so, there you go, third option for sneaky players. I will upload it as an alternative file though, since I think the main file presents enough options already for most players ;)
Thank you for the praise on my mods. Yes, "where do people get food?" was one of my first questions when I played Fallout 3 for the first time and one of the first things I wanted to fix as a mod author ;) It is weird Bethesda missed something that basic since that question was already addressed in Fallout 1 & 2 ! Anyway, now it's fixed ;)
And that's great! If you ever need to further update this and the other mod, I'll take note and will download it, and since I'll need to convert them to TTW for myself, I'll make sure to send you the files!
I'll let you know when it's up. It's being a hectic week.
EDIT: Up now!
The download rate is good too, taken into account that the game is 10 years old and most people don't play Fallout 3 anymore. So I am quite happy with the response. :)
Cheers. Thanks for stopping by ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIF-PxlpF08
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