Ran this alongside Last Person Standing, no issues until that cutscene that supposed to play after Reaper Larvae is defeated, softlocks then to black screen. Disabled this mod first due to nobody but Garrus being loyal. Just putting this here in the off-chance someone else encounters the mini-conflict
I'm thinking about expanding this modification so that loyalty will also be checked for Hold The Line and determine deaths that way.
My idea is that "every" non-loyal squadmate will die holding the line. I'd basically abandon the original HTL system and completely simplify it by checking for loyalty of said squadmates only.
The check would be simple:
Loyal = Survival Disloyal = Death
This will make it easier to achieve the bad ending this way if everyone is disloyal at that point(I don't know if it's actually possible to start the suicide mission by avoiding the loyalty missions entirely). Technically this also gives you a certain amount of influence towards the casualties, since you would basically be able to choose them directly by affecting the loyalty of the squadmates. Say you want Miranda to die. Take away her loyalty and boom, off she goes while holding the line.
However...this will eliminate the possibility of non-loyal squadmates to be carried over to ME3 because their survival will no longer be possible if disloyal in ME2.
If you could add this as an optional module during installation, then yes, sure. If not, I'd say it's not worth it. If someone really wants to kill certain squadmates for ME3, they can use either the Save editor or Suicide mission calculator.
Yes, I was thinking if this should better be an optional addition.
There may be users which would want to continue using the vanilla system here. I'd respect that.
I already did test it successfully on my end, so I could already publish it.
However I presume there will be compatibility issues with other mods (Last Person Standing for example), which I'd have to pay attention to in this regard.
Thanks for your input. I will make this an optional addition then.
This mod is not going to be compatible with my Miranda's Longwalk mod as a side note because they basically do the same thing but this one on a larger scale
As someone who has 10+ playthroughs of ME2, I honestly enjoyed this mod when I got to see it in action two days ago. Miranda's comment when you choose Jack as the first strike team leader is worth it ALONE. Really cool seeing other characters that you KNOW are in leadership roles in ME3 (Jack, Grunt, Tali) taking leadership roles here. Thanks for your hard work!
Having played the Suicide Mission so many times (as ME2 is my most played ME title), I've always wanted to see the scenes of the squadmates doing the jobs they weren't "supposed" to do. I never understood why loyalty only mattered if you chose the correct character for the jobs, but if you chose anyone else, it was as if they weren't loyal at all
That's exactly what I was thinking. Loyalty only matters for the right chosen squadmates during the first two phases of the Collector Base Mission. After that the original game checks for loyalty on every squadmate during Crew Escort and Hold The Line.
What makes this even more interesting is that it seems to have been actually intended by BioWare to support more squadmates succeeding in their tasks than what we got in the end since I can confirm Thane and Grunt actually have dialogue for surviving as the 2nd Fireteam Leader, which isn't new in my mod. It's always been there.
Miranda, Jacob and Thane also have dialogue for succeeding as biotic specialist.
The only missing dialogue is when any tech specialist besides Tali, Kasumi and Legion succeeds and that's Shepard's reaction to their success.
It might be that it was possible in an earlier stage of the game to have everyone succeed in their assignment.
I think actually they recorded that dialogue and they later decided who was going to be able to succeed in each task and who wasn't. I mean they also have dialogue for Mordin casting the biotic bubble, so even his class was determined quite late. He was probably a Sentinel before.
It might be possible to use AI to add in the needed voice lines, that or just splice previous dialogue so that it sounds right. I imagine there could be a lot that could be expanded upon with this mod! Maybe Mordin could be modded in so that he could cast the biotic bubble, since he has pre-existing lines
Technically I presume that you could edit your savegame if you knew what plot integer/bool/float to change in it order to change the Biotic Specialist in Long Walk. You could possibly cheat Mordin into the Long Walk as Biotic Specialist going that route.
However...
I only developed my mod with the selectable squadmates in mind. I fear that having unselectable squadmates do these tasks may create serious issues so I left them out when expanding the loyalty survival system.
Investigating the vanilla sequences I saw that there are actually checks for Mordin etc for the Long Walk but they are programmed to always fail for being invalid choices just like for Infiltration without this mod.
So even if you manage to bring him in, he will always fail. Same goes to Garrus, Tali and the others which are not selectable as Biotic Specialist
Maybe I will adapt my mod to allow Mordin and other unselectable specialists to succeed depending on loyalty if it's proven that there will be no serious issues going that route.
Well...I did some investigations. Not with Mordin but with another unselectable candidate. Jack for Tech Specialist.
There are choice options for all squadmates in the sequence where the specialists/team leaders are selected.
Weirdly enough even Jack, Grunt and everyone else were among the choice options for Tech Specialist.
They were just disabled.
So I thought I'd figure out, what would happen if I activate them?
Well, my game glitched a bit out.
The choices were present but had no correct text (may have been because I didn't set the language to english)
And when I picked Jack, Shepard talked to Kasumi (lol?).
But in the squad selection Jack was actually marked as Specialist.
And...
Yep. That's Jack as Tech Specialist xD.
However it's definitely not supported since Tali speaks instead of her when proceeding through the stage. I actually saw Jack in the tube. She also t-posed for a bit, which was a bit hilarious. Most of the time however she looked fine.
She even was present in the cutscene where she unlocks the door for my squad.
The problem was, she was animated to say something but had no voice lines, so she just babbled nothing.
If Jack was supported by the mod, this is where the loyalty check would be used but I left it out for Jack, so yeah, she instantly died even though Mordin was loyal and accompanying her.
The game even registered her death correctly even though she was an unsupported selection.
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It might be possible to make these squadmates selectable like Mordin for Biotic Walk. However for this more work appears to be required than just editing the sequence.
If I were to only edit the sequence, well...it would be cursed.
Investing more work in this possibly not something I would do...
A quicker way may be to edit your savegame to somehow change the Specialist during the phase you're currently in.
I can see the rationale in vanilla of some of these choices (for example, Grunt is not a leader, he's a killing machine -- best to leave it someone with more experience and leadership like Garrus), based on the background of characters, but at the very least, I would like to use this if only to see the scenes and lines of other squadmates without worrying about them dying and having to restart.
I do not intend to fight against the rationality of the right choices with this mod.
That mod was made exactly with the thought in mind allowing squadmates not right for the job to be successful.
I may have a went a bit overboard with this because I basically allowed everyone to be successful. If I were to think logically I think I would have only allowed Garrus to additionally succeed as Tech Specialist and Miranda as Biotic Specialist.
Okay. Garrus with his weapons calibrations may not look right as a tech specialist. That's a bad example.
But then again, why would he be selectable? BioWare must've had a reason, right?
Grunt is of course debatable. You've got a point with him being unsuitable for a leading position.
But I'll admit. Seeing Legion lead the squad is a funny sight.
So is Jacob as Tech Specialist when he actually manages to prove Miranda wrong with her doubts about him.
In the character description when choosing, there is information about what a particular team member is strong at. Garrus is good at calibrating weapons, but not at hacking electronic systems. We look at the description and think: Tali is a good technical specialist. Kasumi is a good hacker. Legion - like a geth, good at hacking too. Regarding the commander of the second team, everything here is quite logical. A good soldier does not equal a good commander. Grunt can fight well himself, but he can't explain it to others. Garrus was the squad leader. All elements are in place. This mod makes no sense.
For such an experience, the "Risky Suicide Mission" mod is better suited.
36 / 5 000
Результаты переводаПереводTali is a good technical specialist
I agree that Risky Suicide Mission surpasses this mod by a long shot.
And I fully support that mod. I have no intention of making my mod look better. Not at all. Especially since it's my first DLC-Mod.
This mod only expands upon the original survival system of the game by making other squadmates able to succeed based on loyalty, something already present for the Crew Escort.
In case someone prefers the original system, they can use this mod to expand upon it.
It's understandable that it doesn't make any sense by basically getting rid of the "think before you choose"-part. And I agree with the reasons you pointed out. But sometimes it might be cool to see how it would be if the others had actually succeeded. At that point logical sense must not be a factor.
Yes, I agree that it may make the suicide mission ridiculously easy. If a challenge is what you're looking for, this isn't the mod for you. Unless you count playing on a higher game difficulty in for the loyalty missions in combination with this mod as a challenge. As a beginner in all this I'm not able to provide any sort of challenge at the moment like RSM does.
And I also do not intend to do so.
If you'd rather use Risky Suicide Mission, then I won't stop you.
I appreciate your explanations about the right choices though.
Edit: ah, I was too slow. Can ignore my post. ____ Not in version 1.0.: Risky Suicide Mission modifies the same files this mod changes. (A patch with both mods' changes would be necessary.)
@Nefilolghost I can't say for sure but it will be most likely that you will miss out on the readiness checks from Risky Suicide Mission for the Infiltration Phase and Long Walk since Risky Suicide Mission comes with it's own modifications for the Infiltration and Long Walk Conclusion Files.
At least when you install Loyalty Matters after it.
Then again. This mod is only there to provide a more vanilla-based approach on how squadmates can succeed in their task by reusing the loyalty checks already programmed into the game.
If you intend to use RSM, it will probably be better to stick with that mod only to avoid things going out of balance.
Yeh it's not compatible. Either this mod will have no effect, or some stuff in Risky Suicide Mission will be screwed up (depending on which one mounts higher, not installation order).
But there is no point at all installing both or making a patch, since Risky Suicide Mission already allows everyone to succeed at any task (as long as they're selectable: can't do the bubble with a non-biotic ofc).
@55tumbl Exactly. There will be no reason to have both mods installed since your mod technically expands on mine with the modifications you made.
Not to mention it overhauls the suicide mission in a remarkable extent with the readiness system you implemented. Your mod obviously surpasses mine :)
I presume that a compatibility patch will not be necessary since there is no reason to have both mods installed if they are basically doing the same. Both of our mods allow for unusual squadmates to succeed in their assignments during Infiltration and The Long Walk. For safety reasons I may consider implementing a block for the mod which prevents you from installing Loyalty Matters through the Mod Manager, when Risky Suicide Mission is installed to avoid potential issues.
About the mount priority. I must have set it too low, since your's is way higher than mine. At least that's what I can tell from the numbers. Maybe that will be a problem if a lower number means that this mod takes priority over yours.
Apologies, I am new to creating DLC Mods for this game. I was using the DLC Mod Creation Guide on ME3Tweaks as guidance. I paid attention to this exact statement.
For mount priority values, you should choose an unused value under 4800 (but greater than 3300) from information on the DLC mod telemetry database.
So I did exactly that by picking a mount priority between these numbers. That may have been a mistake.
In this case it's better if you mount lower than Risky Suicide Mission. The higher value takes priority: the game will use for each file the version from the highest mounted DLC.
This is why I put a large mount value for RSM since the modifications in the different files are highly inter-dependent. If a mod like yours mounted higher than RSM, it can screw things up badly.
But as it is, if you mount lower, your mod will simply have no effect at all if installed alongside with RSM (since the 3 .pcc files in your DLC are also in RSM DLC).
The limit values of 3300-4800 are not enforced anymore, that guide dates back from before Legendary Edition.. not sure what the current limits are , you should probably ask on ME3Tweaks discord if you have any doubts. But as long as mod manager lets you set the value, and it's not the same as another mod or vanilla DLC, I think you're good. It's better not to go too high unless there is a necessity (how bad would it get if some files of your mod get overridden, but not others)
There are some more up to date guides here: https://github.com/ME3Tweaks/LegendaryExplorer/wiki (including one about mounts)
I have always thought the game makes it very clear whom it thinks is the right choice for each task. Of course an actual tech specialist is best suited for a tech assignment. Of course somebody with actual leadership experience is best suited as team leader. And of course the most powerful biotics are the best choice for keeping you safe from the Seekers. How that is a mystery to people, that is the real mystery.
It's just that I'm wondering where in the game you receive certain hints that this particular squadmate is right for the job.
Maybe I'm just blind but the only clues you get are from Miranda and Samara.
Miranda dismisses Jacob's idea to go into the vents himself by proprosing to send a tech expert. A first-timer might think "How should I know which one of them is a tech expert?"
Another clue is from Samara when she proposes the idea of the biotic barrier for getting through the Seeker Swarms.
35 comments
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JumpMy idea is that "every" non-loyal squadmate will die holding the line. I'd basically abandon the original HTL system and completely simplify it by checking for loyalty of said squadmates only.
The check would be simple:
Loyal = Survival
Disloyal = Death
This will make it easier to achieve the bad ending this way if everyone is disloyal at that point(I don't know if it's actually possible to start the suicide mission by avoiding the loyalty missions entirely). Technically this also gives you a certain amount of influence towards the casualties, since you would basically be able to choose them directly by affecting the loyalty of the squadmates. Say you want Miranda to die. Take away her loyalty and boom, off she goes while holding the line.
However...this will eliminate the possibility of non-loyal squadmates to be carried over to ME3 because their survival will no longer be possible if disloyal in ME2.
What are your thoughts on this?
There may be users which would want to continue using the vanilla system here. I'd respect that.
I already did test it successfully on my end, so I could already publish it.
However I presume there will be compatibility issues with other mods (Last Person Standing for example), which I'd have to pay attention to in this regard.
Thanks for your input. I will make this an optional addition then.
I'll add it to the list of incompatible mods.
That's actually another reason why this mod would make sense.
I'm glad that you enjoyed the mod. Thank you for your compliments :)
That's exactly what I was thinking. Loyalty only matters for the right chosen squadmates during the first two phases of the Collector Base Mission. After that the original game checks for loyalty on every squadmate during Crew Escort and Hold The Line.
What makes this even more interesting is that it seems to have been actually intended by BioWare to support more squadmates succeeding in their tasks than what we got in the end since I can confirm Thane and Grunt actually have dialogue for surviving as the 2nd Fireteam Leader, which isn't new in my mod. It's always been there.
Miranda, Jacob and Thane also have dialogue for succeeding as biotic specialist.
The only missing dialogue is when any tech specialist besides Tali, Kasumi and Legion succeeds and that's Shepard's reaction to their success.
It might be that it was possible in an earlier stage of the game to have everyone succeed in their assignment.
And then it was scrapped.
However...
I only developed my mod with the selectable squadmates in mind. I fear that having unselectable squadmates do these tasks may create serious issues so I left them out when expanding the loyalty survival system.
Investigating the vanilla sequences I saw that there are actually checks for Mordin etc for the Long Walk but they are programmed to always fail for being invalid choices just like for Infiltration without this mod.
So even if you manage to bring him in, he will always fail. Same goes to Garrus, Tali and the others which are not selectable as Biotic Specialist
Maybe I will adapt my mod to allow Mordin and other unselectable specialists to succeed depending on loyalty if it's proven that there will be no serious issues going that route.
There are choice options for all squadmates in the sequence where the specialists/team leaders are selected.
Weirdly enough even Jack, Grunt and everyone else were among the choice options for Tech Specialist.
They were just disabled.
So I thought I'd figure out, what would happen if I activate them?
Well, my game glitched a bit out.
The choices were present but had no correct text (may have been because I didn't set the language to english)
And when I picked Jack, Shepard talked to Kasumi (lol?).
But in the squad selection Jack was actually marked as Specialist.
And...
Yep. That's Jack as Tech Specialist xD.
However it's definitely not supported since Tali speaks instead of her when proceeding through the stage. I actually saw Jack in the tube. She also t-posed for a bit, which was a bit hilarious. Most of the time however she looked fine.
She even was present in the cutscene where she unlocks the door for my squad.
The problem was, she was animated to say something but had no voice lines, so she just babbled nothing.
If Jack was supported by the mod, this is where the loyalty check would be used but I left it out for Jack, so yeah, she instantly died even though Mordin was loyal and accompanying her.
The game even registered her death correctly even though she was an unsupported selection.
---
It might be possible to make these squadmates selectable like Mordin for Biotic Walk. However for this more work appears to be required than just editing the sequence.
If I were to only edit the sequence, well...it would be cursed.
Investing more work in this possibly not something I would do...
A quicker way may be to edit your savegame to somehow change the Specialist during the phase you're currently in.
I can see the rationale in vanilla of some of these choices (for example, Grunt is not a leader, he's a killing machine -- best to leave it someone with more experience and leadership like Garrus), based on the background of characters, but at the very least, I would like to use this if only to see the scenes and lines of other squadmates without worrying about them dying and having to restart.
I do not intend to fight against the rationality of the right choices with this mod.
That mod was made exactly with the thought in mind allowing squadmates not right for the job to be successful.
I may have a went a bit overboard with this because I basically allowed everyone to be successful. If I were to think logically I think I would have only allowed Garrus to additionally succeed as Tech Specialist and Miranda as Biotic Specialist.
Okay. Garrus with his weapons calibrations may not look right as a tech specialist. That's a bad example.
But then again, why would he be selectable? BioWare must've had a reason, right?
Grunt is of course debatable. You've got a point with him being unsuitable for a leading position.
But I'll admit. Seeing Legion lead the squad is a funny sight.
So is Jacob as Tech Specialist when he actually manages to prove Miranda wrong with her doubts about him.
Garrus is good at calibrating weapons, but not at hacking electronic systems.
We look at the description and think:
Tali is a good technical specialist.
Kasumi is a good hacker.
Legion - like a geth, good at hacking too.
Regarding the commander of the second team, everything here is quite logical.
A good soldier does not equal a good commander.
Grunt can fight well himself, but he can't explain it to others. Garrus was the squad leader.
All elements are in place. This mod makes no sense.
For such an experience, the "Risky Suicide Mission" mod is better suited.
36 / 5 000
Результаты переводаПереводTali is a good technical specialist
And I fully support that mod. I have no intention of making my mod look better. Not at all. Especially since it's my first DLC-Mod.
This mod only expands upon the original survival system of the game by making other squadmates able to succeed based on loyalty, something already present for the Crew Escort.
In case someone prefers the original system, they can use this mod to expand upon it.
It's understandable that it doesn't make any sense by basically getting rid of the "think before you choose"-part. And I agree with the reasons you pointed out. But sometimes it might be cool to see how it would be if the others had actually succeeded. At that point logical sense must not be a factor.
Yes, I agree that it may make the suicide mission ridiculously easy. If a challenge is what you're looking for, this isn't the mod for you. Unless you count playing on a higher game difficulty in for the loyalty missions in combination with this mod as a challenge. As a beginner in all this I'm not able to provide any sort of challenge at the moment like RSM does.
And I also do not intend to do so.
If you'd rather use Risky Suicide Mission, then I won't stop you.
I appreciate your explanations about the right choices though.
____
Not in version 1.0.: Risky Suicide Mission modifies the same files this mod changes. (A patch with both mods' changes would be necessary.)
At least when you install Loyalty Matters after it.
Then again. This mod is only there to provide a more vanilla-based approach on how squadmates can succeed in their task by reusing the loyalty checks already programmed into the game.
If you intend to use RSM, it will probably be better to stick with that mod only to avoid things going out of balance.
But there is no point at all installing both or making a patch, since Risky Suicide Mission already allows everyone to succeed at any task (as long as they're selectable: can't do the bubble with a non-biotic ofc).
Not to mention it overhauls the suicide mission in a remarkable extent with the readiness system you implemented. Your mod obviously surpasses mine :)
I presume that a compatibility patch will not be necessary since there is no reason to have both mods installed if they are basically doing the same. Both of our mods allow for unusual squadmates to succeed in their assignments during Infiltration and The Long Walk. For safety reasons I may consider implementing a block for the mod which prevents you from installing Loyalty Matters through the Mod Manager, when Risky Suicide Mission is installed to avoid potential issues.
About the mount priority. I must have set it too low, since your's is way higher than mine. At least that's what I can tell from the numbers. Maybe that will be a problem if a lower number means that this mod takes priority over yours.
Apologies, I am new to creating DLC Mods for this game. I was using the DLC Mod Creation Guide on ME3Tweaks as guidance. I paid attention to this exact statement.
For mount priority values, you should choose an unused value under 4800 (but greater than 3300) from information on the DLC mod telemetry database.
So I did exactly that by picking a mount priority between these numbers. That may have been a mistake.
This is why I put a large mount value for RSM since the modifications in the different files are highly inter-dependent. If a mod like yours mounted higher than RSM, it can screw things up badly.
But as it is, if you mount lower, your mod will simply have no effect at all if installed alongside with RSM (since the 3 .pcc files in your DLC are also in RSM DLC).
The limit values of 3300-4800 are not enforced anymore, that guide dates back from before Legendary Edition.. not sure what the current limits are , you should probably ask on ME3Tweaks discord if you have any doubts. But as long as mod manager lets you set the value, and it's not the same as another mod or vanilla DLC, I think you're good. It's better not to go too high unless there is a necessity (how bad would it get if some files of your mod get overridden, but not others)
There are some more up to date guides here: https://github.com/ME3Tweaks/LegendaryExplorer/wiki (including one about mounts)
It's just that I'm wondering where in the game you receive certain hints that this particular squadmate is right for the job.
Maybe I'm just blind but the only clues you get are from Miranda and Samara.
Miranda dismisses Jacob's idea to go into the vents himself by proprosing to send a tech expert. A first-timer might think "How should I know which one of them is a tech expert?"
Another clue is from Samara when she proposes the idea of the biotic barrier for getting through the Seeker Swarms.
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Jump