Q: Why did you make the decision to block membership in faction X, when you are a member of faction Y? (Explaining everything megathread)
A:
Tribunal Temple - Imperial Cult:
Yes, all the gods probably exist. However, faith in the world of Elder Scrolls is not a question of belief, but a question of whether an entity is worthy of worship. No one denies that the gods of the other faction exist, they deny that they are worthy of being worshiped. "The Imperials worship powerful spirits... but are they the right spirits?" If you also see the gods of the other religion worthy of being worshiped, you clearly don't take the doctrine of this religion seriously.
Mages' Guild - House Telvanni:
They are rival groups of mages, they don't want you to gain an influence and learn their secrets while serving the rival faction.
Mages' Guild - Temple:
The Temple doesn't allow it, because we are before Hannibal Traven's reforms, so in theory, the Mages' Guild at least tolerates necromancy, which is a grave sin (pun intended) in the eyes of the Temple.
The Mages' Guild doesn't allow it for the same reason, but approached from the perspective of the other side: In their eyes, the Temple are just a bunch of religious zealots, while they are free thinkers who want to accumulate knowledge in an unrestricted manner, putting such ridiculous notions such as "heresy" and "blasphemy" behind themselves.
Imperial Legion - House Redoran - Fighters' Guild:
You cannot be a soldier in the Emperor's army, a knight in a native Dunmer army, and a mercenary who would join up with whoever pays the most at the same time, you have to pick whether you are loyal to one side, or you are just loyal to your own interest. In addition to which, realistically, being a Legion soldier would consume all of your time, it's an army. You cannot just take a week off randomly to hunt rats for the Fighters' Guild. (I know that gameplay allows you to do that, but this mod is specifically a modification of gameplay for the sake of roleplay and lore-consistency.) The Redoran's obsession with duty and honor cannot be reconciled with having loyalties to the invading army, or being a mercenary who would randomly switch sides for gold, or would do any kind of dirty work of gold as well. Similarly, the Fighters' Guild wants ruthless mercenaries, you cannot just debate Eydis Fire-Eye about your orders being dishonorable, you have to do them, that's why they pay you. While it's true that these organizations are friendly with each other as far as the faction reaction table on UESP is concerned, I would say that it's more like an admiration of people being in the same profession (warriors) than actual friendship. Similarly as to how you can admire the skills of a rival, without being their allies or friends.
Imperial Legion - Hlaalu, Telvanni:
Military power and political power coming hand in hand is never a good combination, at least for those who are not holding these powers. Realistically, it is in the interest of both the Legion and the Great Houses to prevent such a membership, because neither the Legion wants to be used for your petty political goals, nor do the Great Houses want you to take their faction over violently with your army.
Morag Tong - Any native Dunmer faction:
Everyone can be a target of assassination, you cannot afford to hesitate when you are ordered to kill, it just cannot be reconciled, when fellow faction member becomes a target, you would be forced to pick a side.
Nota Bene: My initial version of this mod placed even more restrictions than this, but Luce convinced me to make it a bit less restrictive. :D
- I wanted to prevent membership in ANY faction if you're a Morag Tong assassin, because in practice everyone can be a target. (In theory, only Dunmer, so that's why the change, but we know that this part of the Armistice is not always observed, see Larrius Varro.)
- I also wanted to prevent membership in the Imperial Legion and the East Empire Company at the same time, for the same reason as stated above, with the former being an army. Like, you can't just take a week off to go to Solstheim and build a colony, you are a freaking soldier in an army.
How does one join the IL if they are already in the FG?
My disposition is 100 with Darius and his conversation toggles between the "part-time" fighter guild and "are you ready to take some REAL orders?" paragraph, to the line with "join the imperial legion"
I am running 1.3 version and also a member with the Blades and Mage Guild.
edit: popped the esp open in Construction Set and took a look at the dialogues added by this mod under "join the imperial legion", and the issue with the dialogue regarding joining the Imperial Legion as Fighters Guild member is that the "Result" box is completely empty, it doesn't lead to any dialogue options for the PC. Easy fix for that dialogue option is look at the vanilla dialogue options for joining the Legion and copy:
Choice "Sign me up, sir!" 1 "Tell me about the Imperial Legion, sir." 2
It would be nice for a future update to have more granularity when it comes to religious organisations. The mutual exclusivity is logical, but religion and worship are funny matters - historically and in present day people have been making interesting choices about their affiliations and worship. So I feel it would be quite normal (even if frowned upon by the institutions) for a person to attend both an IC shrine and a local Tribunal temple - although it makes all the sence that such person wouldn't be able to move up the ranks in both without very significant obstacles.
Thanks Lucevar and Alicel, fantastic mod. I don't know how doable they are but i have some ideas for "Temple-Imperial Cult" and "Morag Tong-Great Houses" maybe you or anyone consider making this changes as a optional version, ı'm also trying that.
Tribunal Temple and Imperial Cult
Player can join either faction as a member of other one with high dispotion (100). But NPC warn us for we will be expelled from other faction. And if player accept to join they will permanantly expelled from former faction. Maybe some unique dialogues about this religion changing event for former faction members.
Morag Tong and Great Houses
If player is Great House member and wants to join Morag Tong, Eno Hlaalu gives a quest to player. In this quest we must kill one of our own house member (new NPC only active during this quest) for test of loyalty. If player don't accept this, Morag Tong will be never trust to player again and we can't join Tong ever. After this quest completed player can become part of Morag Tong as a house member.
If player is already Morag Tong member and joined to one of the Great Houses, Morag Tong members force greeting to player and lead them to Eno Hlaalu, who wants to speak with player. In this stage player's Morag Tong quest prograssion has stopped, Tong members only says Eno Hlaalu waiting for us. Eno Hlaalu give same quest that above and if player don't accept it he will expelled from Morag Tong.
If player already Morag Tong's Grandmaster and joined the Great House nothing happens, no one can judging him for his Great House membership.
Baladas will offer to help you join House Telvanni even if you're already a member of HT. It's not a game breaking bug or anything but it's just slightly immersion breaking. I added a check for same faction to the dialogue and that seems to have fixed it.
No, just features. It loosens a lot of the other restrictions and adds some flavour dialogue. Sorry that the MT/HT combo isn't one of them! Kadok's version has a "Morag Tong Edition" esp, check it out to see if that one might be closer to what you want :)
I would but I'm getting some alarming error messages with that fork installed. I don't suppose there's any chance of getting the MT/HT version back as an optional download?
Hello, thank you for this and many others amazing mods. I didn't quite agree with every decision made, so I've quickly cobbled a tweaked version of it and uploaded it here for public use, since your permissions seem to be open. I will, of course, take it down on request if that ever changes.
I'm very happy for you to host your own fork of the mod - understandably some of the choices I made for MEF won't be to everyone's tastes, so it will be good to have yours available as an extra option. Thank you for sharing it :)
Looks like a well-thought out mod, going to give it a shot because it's too easy to join everything in vanilla, and every character easily ends up the same. I'm not convinced about Morag Tong being banned from other Dunmer faction though, even if I understand the reasoning; I feel if anything, members should be banned form Imperial factions, since Morag Tong is an ancient native institution and I'd expect them to be more xenophobic (in a way that they'll accept foreigners, as long as those foreigners renounce their Imperial affiliations, or something like that). In the same way, Imperials probably wouldn't want an active Morag Tong member lurking in their ranks either, according to the lore they're essentially a 'cult celebrating murder in the name of Mephala', after all.
The 'being forced to pick a side' is a non-issue for me, since they most likely just pretend to be loyal to whatever other faction they're in, acting as spies or something; I don't see them being too torn up about killing whomever once the time came -- heck you could even be glad you finally get to kill some annoying dude in your faction legally. :D
Anyway, I'll be using the mod together with Leaving Great Houses and Freelancer mods, because that at least gives me some more options and I don't have to decide to join the Morag Tong right away; I don't see my character arriving in a new country -- possibly hoping for a fresh start, leaving their past behind -- and immediately looking to join a murderous cult; they'd want to try other things first I bet...
Can you make a version that makes joining "mutually exclusive" factions more difficult (requires high disposition, etc) without it being completely impossible?
+1. I'm generally of the opinion that if you get someone's disposition to 90 or so, very little should be impossible. They're a good friend of yours now.
Although if I knew how to mod anything at all, I'd uncap disposition. Let high reputation and quests and such push it past some, and then once it does, they'll do things they wouldn't normally do. Agree with mostly anything. Barter their shirt off their back if you asked.
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Tribunal Temple - Imperial Cult:
Yes, all the gods probably exist. However, faith in the world of Elder Scrolls is not a question of belief, but a question of whether an entity is worthy of worship. No one denies that the gods of the other faction exist, they deny that they are worthy of being worshiped. "The Imperials worship powerful spirits... but are they the right spirits?" If you also see the gods of the other religion worthy of being worshiped, you clearly don't take the doctrine of this religion seriously.
Mages' Guild - House Telvanni:
They are rival groups of mages, they don't want you to gain an influence and learn their secrets while serving the rival faction.
Mages' Guild - Temple:
The Temple doesn't allow it, because we are before Hannibal Traven's reforms, so in theory, the Mages' Guild at least tolerates necromancy, which is a grave sin (pun intended) in the eyes of the Temple.
The Mages' Guild doesn't allow it for the same reason, but approached from the perspective of the other side: In their eyes, the Temple are just a bunch of religious zealots, while they are free thinkers who want to accumulate knowledge in an unrestricted manner, putting such ridiculous notions such as "heresy" and "blasphemy" behind themselves.
Imperial Legion - House Redoran - Fighters' Guild:
You cannot be a soldier in the Emperor's army, a knight in a native Dunmer army, and a mercenary who would join up with whoever pays the most at the same time, you have to pick whether you are loyal to one side, or you are just loyal to your own interest. In addition to which, realistically, being a Legion soldier would consume all of your time, it's an army. You cannot just take a week off randomly to hunt rats for the Fighters' Guild. (I know that gameplay allows you to do that, but this mod is specifically a modification of gameplay for the sake of roleplay and lore-consistency.) The Redoran's obsession with duty and honor cannot be reconciled with having loyalties to the invading army, or being a mercenary who would randomly switch sides for gold, or would do any kind of dirty work of gold as well. Similarly, the Fighters' Guild wants ruthless mercenaries, you cannot just debate Eydis Fire-Eye about your orders being dishonorable, you have to do them, that's why they pay you. While it's true that these organizations are friendly with each other as far as the faction reaction table on UESP is concerned, I would say that it's more like an admiration of people being in the same profession (warriors) than actual friendship. Similarly as to how you can admire the skills of a rival, without being their allies or friends.
Imperial Legion - Hlaalu, Telvanni:
Military power and political power coming hand in hand is never a good combination, at least for those who are not holding these powers. Realistically, it is in the interest of both the Legion and the Great Houses to prevent such a membership, because neither the Legion wants to be used for your petty political goals, nor do the Great Houses want you to take their faction over violently with your army.
Morag Tong - Any native Dunmer faction:
Everyone can be a target of assassination, you cannot afford to hesitate when you are ordered to kill, it just cannot be reconciled, when fellow faction member becomes a target, you would be forced to pick a side.
Nota Bene: My initial version of this mod placed even more restrictions than this, but Luce convinced me to make it a bit less restrictive. :D
- I wanted to prevent membership in ANY faction if you're a Morag Tong assassin, because in practice everyone can be a target. (In theory, only Dunmer, so that's why the change, but we know that this part of the Armistice is not always observed, see Larrius Varro.)
- I also wanted to prevent membership in the Imperial Legion and the East Empire Company at the same time, for the same reason as stated above, with the former being an army. Like, you can't just take a week off to go to Solstheim and build a colony, you are a freaking soldier in an army.
My disposition is 100 with Darius and his conversation toggles between the "part-time" fighter guild and "are you ready to take some REAL orders?" paragraph, to the line with "join the imperial legion"
I am running 1.3 version and also a member with the Blades and Mage Guild.
edit: popped the esp open in Construction Set and took a look at the dialogues added by this mod under "join the imperial legion", and the issue with the dialogue regarding joining the Imperial Legion as Fighters Guild member is that the "Result" box is completely empty, it doesn't lead to any dialogue options for the PC. Easy fix for that dialogue option is look at the vanilla dialogue options for joining the Legion and copy:
Choice "Sign me up, sir!" 1 "Tell me about the Imperial Legion, sir." 2
into the "Result" box, then save the ESP.
Tribunal Temple and Imperial Cult
Player can join either faction as a member of other one with high dispotion (100). But NPC warn us for we will be expelled from other faction. And if player accept to join they will permanantly expelled from former faction. Maybe some unique dialogues about this religion changing event for former faction members.
Morag Tong and Great Houses
If player is Great House member and wants to join Morag Tong, Eno Hlaalu gives a quest to player. In this quest we must kill one of our own house member (new NPC only active during this quest) for test of loyalty. If player don't accept this, Morag Tong will be never trust to player again and we can't join Tong ever. After this quest completed player can become part of Morag Tong as a house member.
If player is already Morag Tong member and joined to one of the Great Houses, Morag Tong members force greeting to player and lead them to Eno Hlaalu, who wants to speak with player. In this stage player's Morag Tong quest prograssion has stopped, Tong members only says Eno Hlaalu waiting for us. Eno Hlaalu give same quest that above and if player don't accept it he will expelled from Morag Tong.
If player already Morag Tong's Grandmaster and joined the Great House nothing happens, no one can judging him for his Great House membership.
version of it and uploaded it here for public use, since your permissions seem to be open. I will, of course, take it down on request if that ever changes.
The 'being forced to pick a side' is a non-issue for me, since they most likely just pretend to be loyal to whatever other faction they're in, acting as spies or something; I don't see them being too torn up about killing whomever once the time came -- heck you could even be glad you finally get to kill some annoying dude in your faction legally. :D
Anyway, I'll be using the mod together with Leaving Great Houses and Freelancer mods, because that at least gives me some more options and I don't have to decide to join the Morag Tong right away; I don't see my character arriving in a new country -- possibly hoping for a fresh start, leaving their past behind -- and immediately looking to join a murderous cult; they'd want to try other things first I bet...
like, what?
Although if I knew how to mod anything at all, I'd uncap disposition. Let high reputation and quests and such push it past some, and then once it does, they'll do things they wouldn't normally do. Agree with mostly anything. Barter their shirt off their back if you asked.
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