I don't understand much about the megaton 70 barter discussion but I assume you never did make speech check easier or harder, and the speech check was always hard (i dont remember much of original diffculty because of save scum).
Have you consider doing a bit of balancing yourself as an optional files?
Because I think many would agreed Bethesda screw up a bit for that Barter Check with Lucas. Maybe lower it to 50. So, someone who play a high charisma, trader build character could achieve it.
edit. Just found out atribute tweak doesn't do s#*! for this mod, despite other told me so... sigh, just when I was hoping CHA to be not useless. whatever.
2nd edit, turn out im just a dumbass. CHA does indeed affect dialogue check, including this mod. a 10 CHA which increase barter to 39, and yet it was few point away from succeeding the barter check.
Very kool. Very demure. 3rd edit, in hindsight, considering 10 CHA and 40-45 Barter is enough to succeed the 70 barter check, maybe Bethesda balancing is good enough.
I like how fallout 3 makes CHA important when it comes to persuasion. If you have 1 CHA but max Speech skill, you be lucky to save scum just several time.
I hate rng but I appreciate bethesda way to make the stat relevant. New Vegas is even worse, charismatically disable but could still convince a man of science the world is flat.
It also incorporates Luck, whether you have a weapon holstered or pulled out and it may or may not also consider Karma. But that's just speculation on my part.
Why do people like nv's speech checks out of everything nv did better speech is definitely not one of them fallout 3's chance based system while less min max friendly (which is a good thing) does multiple things better like making it more immersive and that im not some divine god cause even if im the most charismatic affluent person alive i still have a chance of having a voice crack (especially since the fo3 protagonist is a teenager) you might argue "well shouldnt all checks be chance based then?" and i have two answers a)yes because that would be really fun and would add replay ability to the game b) no because talking to someone is on the spot whereas figuring out how to repair something (given that you are leveled in it) would be something that you could in real life spend two hours thinking about unlike a mid gunpoint conversation
all in all stop save scumming hold yourself accountable and enjoy the wonders of rng
If your game design rewards save scumming, then it's bad game design. Simple as that. This is an RPG. You are supposed to be immersed and take the game seriously.
The simple fact that I can save scum, has already ruined all tension a moment could have had, cause I know I can undo it if I want. This makes it kinda impossible to take any given moment seriously.
Not only that, but I can convince any character of anything, if only I am willing to waste my real life time. This makes my characters efficiency ingame depend on my willingness, or lack thereof, for spending my time same scumming. This ruins all possible immersion, since it's not about what my character decides to do, it's about what I decide to do.
In short it's not about doing it or not doing it. But simply having the option hurts the game oh so much.
That's is, by far, the dumbest take I ever saw someone make. Really? Out of everything you could say fallout 3 did better you choose to defend the thing everyone agrees fnv did better? Seriously?
Keep in mind that if a game design that rewards save-scumming is terrible game design, then a good majority of old-school RPG's are terribly designed... including the original Fallouts. There was a element of chance in checks in those games, not to mention that combat was entirely based around turn-based percentages and dice rolls so you could easily save scum to try and get through tricky situations.
Or everyone favorite Golden child of Bethesda, Morrowind. You can save scum before dice-rolling on spell casting, lockpick attempts, etc. My point here is that simply stating any design that allows save-scumming to be terrible is a blanket statement that includes many people's favorite RPG's. People need to stop making nonsensical attempts to bash FO3.
I agree, in new vegas I would never choose the failing speech checks, so miss out on many lines. With the random system you get to see characters reactions to your clumsy attempts and it kept conversations interesting even with a high speech skill. I know randomness is not great design but its a lot better than always winning.
I mean, even conversations in real life are kind of a gamble, aren't they?
EDIT: Speaking of bad design, what about Lanius being talked down through having Speech 100 WITH CHARISMA 1 by simply saying "There might be too much of the land to conquer"? That's WAY MORE ridiculous than save-scumming conversations in FO3 or Deus Ex.
I've been using this mod for so long I forgot it isn't part of base TTW. Thank you for the years of use I've gotten out of it! Can't believe I haven't endorsed since now
The balancing on this mod is so so SO bad. 70 speech for the Ian West quest? Why? That's not logical or even gameplay consistant! What level am I even supposed to start questing to actually make use of speech? 30?
The vanilla fallout 3 speech check difficulty is based on the possibility of succeeding at lower skill levels. Removing that possibility makes adjusting the skill requirement a necessity for proper balance because it makes the check almost impossible for lower level characters, requiring min-maxing in order to succeed at those lower levels. Blood Ties is one of the very first side quests the player will encounter, a skill requirement of 70 is outrageous. I would personally put it at 35-45. Still hard to reach in the early game, but also still doable and doesn't require min-maxing.
I've gotta agree with @pizzafor0dollars, a skill requirement of 70 for one of the very first side quests in the game isn't only outrageous, but it is downright stupid game design knowledge or lack thereof.
Question, I was planning on trying out this mod, but if there is a way to make simple version of this mod, I'm not sure how heavily scripted this one is I'm about to check it in Geck, but my idea is much simpler, if speech/skill check % >= that players skills then pass check before rolling for the percent chance.
I know it's different from what this mod aims to do but achieves functionally the same thing but with the added % chance rng if skill is under. A more advanced version could be make all checks in both Fallout 3 & NV NV if player skill is above & show as % chance if not.
It's bad precisely because it's balanced around Bethesda's poor game design decisions. The speech checks were made with RNG in mind, so their difficulties were not chosen with natural player progression in mind.
These three are the worst offenders in my opinion:
Butch's speech check when they're bullying Amata is a "very easy" speech check and requires 20 Speech. This would be okay in literally any other place. You would need 8 CHA at 5 LCK to pass that. Very few people are going to have any points in CHA at all, because with this mod it is just as useless as in New Vegas.
Convincing Butch to save his mom is an "easy" speech check and requires 40?! Speech. You would have to have 10 Charisma at 5 LCK and Speech tagged.
To get extra caps from Lucas Simms for disarming the bomb, you need 70 Barter. Imagine if Goodsprings folks required 70 in each respective skill to help in Ghost Town Gunfight. Or if Trudy needed 70 Barter to get extra caps for repairing her radio.
I think the mod is fine if you prefer the author's grading of how hard certain skill checks should be vs. how hard they were coded to be. The author thinks Butch's speech check should be harder than how they were intended to be - fair enough. Weaseling extra caps out of Simms for disarming the bomb is apparently supposed to be one of the best deals of all time - hence 70 barter. My point is basically this mod is quite good if you understand that most characters are now intended to fail the above (and similarly changed) skill checks.
This is an excellent mod! I found one speech check that was still vanilla. It was when I was talking to Lucas Simms at the very beginning of the game. Specifically the line, "Demolition expertise doesn't come cheap. I want 500 caps." But other than that I haven't seen one other vanilla speech check in 250 hours of gameplay! This and Lone Courier's Dialogue are two absolutely essential mods for any TTW playthrough. Endorsed!
came running to this mod when i encountered this, very odd that it's just this one check? hopefully the mod updates to fix this one day! kinda crazy that this mod still gets regularly updated and 2 years later this is still a thing.
Why our first option after Vault require 70 Speech and gives 2000 caps? Make it 25 and 500 or something, but not that high and juicy to postone and get easy caps later
Not quite, buddy. I checked Fallout 3 again, and it gives 500 caps for a successful check. You bumped it up to 2000 and increased the skill requirements to match.
No, and I don't suggest using the wiki because it's full of false information like what you're currently giving me.
I checked the actual in-game masters using the development tools and it's 500, this mod didn't change it TO 500 as that's how the game is set up, why exactly would I make that change? It's completely out-of-scope.
Please don't accuse people of being wrong when you need to look back at yourself, have a lovely day. :)
Um. The Fallout Wiki is mainly written by people who don't even verify things by checking xEdit. All they do is open up the game until they "figure it out." It's filled with a lot of false information. A modder who's worked with the GECK and looked at the game's guts for several years will know more on the technical side than some random wiki article.
I was very confused reading this thread because i wasnt sure if the mod actually changes the caps reward Simms gives. Turns out that, after seeing the dialogue myself, the 2000 caps dialogue option is the option that appears when you have LESS barter skill than the 70 required. The 500 cap option appears when you have the required amount and the caps reward is the same as in vanilla FO3. To think that this agressiveness and the strays at the wiki were a product of lacking information lol
Yeah if you don't have the required skill to make the check, the dialogue used is for 2000 to show you're overreaching. If you have high enough barter, you will ask for the more reasonable 500 which he will accept. So you're kind of all right! It really does say 2000 but the mod author didn't do it nor will it actually give 2000. Yay mystery solved, carry on people.
how you get 70 speech at level 1 also this has already been explained to you twice, but third time's the charm so i'll explain it to you aswell it works just like new vegas, if you don't meet the requirements for a speech check, you'll see a completely different dialogue, it's not like in vanilla fallout 3 and 4 where your character says the exact same thing and the only variable is if the npc you're talking to is in a good mood or not just try looking at the images and compare the failed speech checks to the successful ones and you should see the difference
Yeah i agree, This mod is ridiculously harsh if you're low level doing early game missions. I ended up just removing it and going back to Fo3 speech checks. Requiring 70 barter/speech for simms dialogue (the first person you should meet after stepping out of the vault) is crazy, and why raise the amount of caps?
Complaining about the mod authors ego while you come in here aggressively incorrect and over confident is insane. I honestly don't know how the modding community isn't completely dead after reading some of the crap people post here.
This gives a nice boost to all speech checks offseting the targets disposition by a factor of your speech skill.
ref scp;(speechcheckplayer)
set scp to player.getNumericGameSetting fDispTargetCharOffset / (player.getav speech / 10) player.setNumericGameSetting fDispTargetCharOffset scp
if your speech is 35+charisma 5 the megaton 500 caps is 22% success, but if with the above script it's 33%. Bugged I'm still testing % effects but ideally I'd like to set this reward be closer to 50% & the next check 75%.
set scp to (player.getav speech / 10) works, 22%=25% & second check is 50%, test /5 to see if it's 50%&100%. nope /5 =18%, so I'll try /20. 20=29%, checking /100
The below script test was very flawed but has a bunch of useful coding.
;A test script, where I wrote out the speech check geck wiki data in script form. :This will check if player is in menu dialog & speech Difficulty Very Hard && if player speech skill is >=greater/equal to then sets the speech check to .0 aka 1always 100%.
if dofst == 0 player.SetNumericGameSetting fSpeechAutoSuccessThreshold .9 endif
if player.getav speech >= avpc && player.getNumericGameSetting iSpeechChallengeDifficultyVeryHard (might need * 100 or something still testing) player.SetNumericGameSetting fSpeechAutoSuccessThreshold 0 set dofst to 1 else set dofst to 0 endif
192 comments
I don't understand much about the megaton 70 barter discussion but I assume you never did make speech check easier or harder, and the speech check was always hard (i dont remember much of original diffculty because of save scum).
Have you consider doing a bit of balancing yourself as an optional files?
Because I think many would agreed Bethesda screw up a bit for that Barter Check with Lucas. Maybe lower it to 50. So, someone who play a high charisma, trader build character could achieve it.
edit. Just found out atribute tweak doesn't do s#*! for this mod, despite other told me so... sigh, just when I was hoping CHA to be not useless. whatever.2nd edit, turn out im just a dumbass. CHA does indeed affect dialogue check, including this mod. a 10 CHA which increase barter to 39, and yet it was few point away from succeeding the barter check.
Very kool. Very demure.
3rd edit, in hindsight, considering 10 CHA and 40-45 Barter is enough to succeed the 70 barter check, maybe Bethesda balancing is good enough.
I hate rng but I appreciate bethesda way to make the stat relevant. New Vegas is even worse, charismatically disable but could still convince a man of science the world is flat.
a)yes because that would be really fun and would add replay ability to the game
b) no because talking to someone is on the spot whereas figuring out how to repair something (given that you are leveled in it) would be something that you could in real life spend two hours thinking about unlike a mid gunpoint conversation
all in all stop save scumming hold yourself accountable and enjoy the wonders of rng
This is an RPG. You are supposed to be immersed and take the game seriously.
The simple fact that I can save scum, has already ruined all tension a moment could have had, cause I know I can undo it if I want. This makes it kinda impossible to take any given moment seriously.
Not only that, but I can convince any character of anything, if only I am willing to waste my real life time. This makes my characters efficiency ingame depend on my willingness, or lack thereof, for spending my time same scumming. This ruins all possible immersion, since it's not about what my character decides to do, it's about what I decide to do.
In short it's not about doing it or not doing it. But simply having the option hurts the game oh so much.
Along with equipping gear, taking other chems, etc etc etc...
The save scumming is lessened, but lets not pretend its not there.
Or everyone favorite Golden child of Bethesda, Morrowind. You can save scum before dice-rolling on spell casting, lockpick attempts, etc. My point here is that simply stating any design that allows save-scumming to be terrible is a blanket statement that includes many people's favorite RPG's. People need to stop making nonsensical attempts to bash FO3.
EDIT: Speaking of bad design, what about Lanius being talked down through having Speech 100 WITH CHARISMA 1 by simply saying "There might be too much of the land to conquer"? That's WAY MORE ridiculous than save-scumming conversations in FO3 or Deus Ex.
If you really don't like it that much feel free to make a mod to reduce the skill required.
I know it's different from what this mod aims to do but achieves functionally the same thing but with the added % chance rng if skill is under. A more advanced version could be make all checks in both Fallout 3 & NV NV if player skill is above & show as % chance if not.
These three are the worst offenders in my opinion:
I think the mod is fine if you prefer the author's grading of how hard certain skill checks should be vs. how hard they were coded to be. The author thinks Butch's speech check should be harder than how they were intended to be - fair enough. Weaseling extra caps out of Simms for disarming the bomb is apparently supposed to be one of the best deals of all time - hence 70 barter. My point is basically this mod is quite good if you understand that most characters are now intended to fail the above (and similarly changed) skill checks.
"Demolition expertise doesn't come cheap. I want 500 caps."
But other than that I haven't seen one other vanilla speech check in 250 hours of gameplay!
This and Lone Courier's Dialogue are two absolutely essential mods for any TTW playthrough.
Endorsed!
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Atom
I checked the actual in-game masters using the development tools and it's 500, this mod didn't change it TO 500 as that's how the game is set up, why exactly would I make that change? It's completely out-of-scope.
Please don't accuse people of being wrong when you need to look back at yourself, have a lovely day. :)
also this has already been explained to you twice, but third time's the charm so i'll explain it to you aswell
it works just like new vegas, if you don't meet the requirements for a speech check, you'll see a completely different dialogue, it's not like in vanilla fallout 3 and 4 where your character says the exact same thing and the only variable is if the npc you're talking to is in a good mood or not
just try looking at the images and compare the failed speech checks to the successful ones and you should see the difference
Requiring 70 barter/speech for simms dialogue (the first person you should meet after stepping out of the vault) is crazy, and why raise the amount of caps?
downloading https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/68604?tab=files will fix your issue
ref scp;(speechcheckplayer)
set scp to player.getNumericGameSetting fDispTargetCharOffset / (player.getav speech / 10)
player.setNumericGameSetting fDispTargetCharOffset scp
if your speech is 35+charisma 5 the megaton 500 caps is 22% success, but if with the above script it's 33%. Bugged
I'm still testing % effects but ideally I'd like to set this reward be closer to 50% & the next check 75%.
set scp to (player.getav speech / 10) works, 22%=25% & second check is 50%, test /5 to see if it's 50%&100%. nope
/5 =18%, so I'll try /20. 20=29%, checking /100
The below script test was very flawed but has a bunch of useful coding.
;A test script, where I wrote out the speech check geck wiki data in script form.
:This will check if player is in menu dialog & speech Difficulty Very Hard && if player speech skill is >=greater/equal to then sets the speech check to .0 aka 1always 100%.
short dofst
ref avs;(speech)
ref avd;(Disposition)
ref avc;(Charisma)
ref avk;(Karma)
ref avve;(Difficulty)
ref ave;(Difficulty)
ref ava;(Difficulty)
ref avh;(Difficulty)
ref avvh;(Difficulty)
ref avpc;(PassChance)
Begin Menumode 1009
if dofst == 0
player.SetNumericGameSetting fSpeechAutoSuccessThreshold .9
endif
if player.getav speech >= avpc && player.getNumericGameSetting iSpeechChallengeDifficultyVeryHard (might need * 100 or something still testing)
player.SetNumericGameSetting fSpeechAutoSuccessThreshold 0
set dofst to 1
else
set dofst to 0
endif
;Set avpc to (avs * avd * avve) || (avs * avd * ave) || (avs * avd * ava) || (avs * avd * avh) || (avs * avd * avvh)
Set avpc to (avs * avd * avvh)
set avs to (player.getav speech - getNumericGameSetting fSpeechChallengeSpeechBase) * getNumericGameSetting fSpeechChallengeMultiplier / 100 + 1
set avd to (((player.getav Charisma + player.getav Karma) + (player.IsWeaponOut * getNumericGameSetting fDispTargetWeaponBase) + getNumericGameSetting fDispTargetCharBase) - getNumericGameSetting fSpeechChallengeDispositionBase) * getNumericGameSetting fSpeechChallengeDispositionMultiplier / 100 + 1
set avc to (player.getav Charisma - getNumericGameSetting fDispTargetCharOffset) * getNumericGameSetting fDispTargetCharMult + getNumericGameSetting fDispTargetCharBase
set avk to (player.getav Responsibility * getNumericGameSetting fDispActorRespMult + getNumericGameSetting fDispActorRespBase) * (player.getav Karma * getNumericGameSetting fDispTargetKarmaMult)
set avve to (100 - getNumericGameSetting iSpeechChallengeDifficultyVeryEasy) / 100
set ave to (100 - getNumericGameSetting iSpeechChallengeDifficultyEasy) / 100
set ava to (100 - getNumericGameSetting iSpeechChallengeDifficultyAverage) / 100
set avh to (100 - getNumericGameSetting iSpeechChallengeDifficultyHard) / 100
set avvh to (100 - getNumericGameSetting iSpeechChallengeDifficultyVeryHard) / 100
end