Ridiculous. If there's a questline that feels "off" and would make the game more interesting by either being removed or fleshed out, it would be all of them. When it comes to all the quests, the game guilt trips you into playing them because if you dont why spend 15 dollars for something your not going to play. f*#@! THAT! NOISE! Kill every npc in the entire game and dlc upon exiting doc Mitchell's house and make the mojave how it was meant to be, untouched by man, preserved... a clean slate.
Ridiculous. If there's a questline that feels "off" and would make the game more interesting by either being removed or fleshed out, it would be Yes Man and House's questlines. When it comes to House, the game guilt trips the player into helping him over everyone else. House saves the player when he doesn't have to, House makes the player his protégé, House immediately gives you the Lucky 38, no one in the game shows as much faith in the player from the start as him. Even if you disagree with his vision, few would actually betray him, if they were being honest, especially for other factions that don't show the same level of appreciation.
And then there's Yes Man, the "I know what's best" option. Which could've been more balanced if it had more "AI might go rogue" moments. As it stands, these are the two easy go-to choices that remove all the challenge, as far as morality is concerned.
The Legion works, because it has both the good and the bad, just like the NCR. Removing these tougher options makes the game worse, not better, even if they aren't all that fleshed out either.
Do you realize that people have different opinions. I like the NCR maybe you like the Legion if i wrote a essay on how the NCR would win you would probably prefer the legion.
Why comment on this mod winging about it if your not going to use it, people who do use this mod use it for their personal use and should not be swayed by someone else's opinion.
"The Legion works, because it has both the good and the bad, just like the NCR."
When you find the "good", get back to me. Because the only good thing about living in Legion society that's stated in game is that the roads are safe from raiders and gangs, which doesn't even come close to making up for the institutionalized slavery, genocide of every culture it comes into contact with, and the relegation of women to the role of breeding stock. Likewise, the whole "roads being safe for traders" thing really applies to the NCR as well if you pay attention. Gangs like the Jackals and Vipers used to be much bigger threats out West before the rise of the NCR and consolidation of California, and by the time of New Vegas they've been chased all the way to the Mojave and are all nothing shadows of their former selves.
The Legion as it's presented in New Vegas are clearly the villains, and they aren't even particularly interesting ones because of how mustache-twirling they are and how much of a foul-mouthed walking contradiction Caesar himself is. I mean how many times do NPCs tell you that the Legion is doomed to fall once good ol' Eddy dies because of how little effort he put into building actual institutions and governmental structures? The Legion isn't a real faction, it's a giant cult of personality built on unquestionable loyalty to a man, and once that loyalty is shaken, as we see with Silus, Graham, and Ulysses, there is nothing else holding it together. It's like Marcus said, the Legion follows Caesar, not his ideals. For all the criticism the NCR gets for being corrupt and disfunctional, the Legion is 10x worse, it's just all bubbling beneath the surface, waiting to explode.
So no, IMO, the Legion doesn't work. It doesn't work in gameplay terms because of how little there is to do for them outside of killing a bunch of people and becoming a mustache twirler yourself, and it doesn't work as an actual government form because of how insanely it's structured. Part of me wishes that Obsidian would have gone with another idea and left the Legion to collect dust in Van Buren.
All factions have pros and cons, the Legion included. But it takes time to explain so this will be a lengthy reply. Unlike the NCR, the Legion's cons aren't hidden, they're right there. The members act like comic book villains, they're rude towards everyone, they're blood-thirsty and unlikable. They practice a form of radical collectivism, where the individual is only valued for the services they provide to the group, either as an instrument of war or production. Legionnaires are often punished as a group by their superiors, even individuals that did nothing wrong. It's horrible. And yet, it would be foolish to dismiss the faction entirely, especially when human civilization is proof that violent and backwards societies (that would horrify us if we went back in time) can lead to better things and progress in a positive way. The Legion is the new kid on the block, it's barely "civilized", not only because it hasn't had the time, but because it's essentially an amalgamation of ultra-violent tribes. To expect such a faction to be "nicer" at that point in time would be unrealistic, especially when they're at war and their soldiers are all the player comes into contact with in the game. Given the in-game descriptions of said tribes, it's already a miracle that they all work together for a common goal that is higher than just themselves and abide by a strict set of values.
Caesar acknowledges these problems, he even says he is looking forward to a synthesis where the Legion's values merge with the rest of the Wasteland's and they get to develop as a faction. The Legion in its current state, is an instrument of war, by necessity, as their entire survival is at stake. Why would he waste the few years he has left building institutions, when those would all be destroyed by the NCR, if he loses the war? Is the Legion a cult of personality? To some extent yes, but it's also more than that. The effects of the genocide you mentioned, as well as the values the Legion forces upon the tribes they conquer, will endure after Caesar's death. The Legion is actually changing the people of the Wasteland, both physically and mentally, by extreme means.
So what's actually good about the Legion? I won't waste time with small stuff like safe roads and less corruption. Instead, let's start with the main problem in Fallout, how do you prevent humanity from annihilating itself? The NCR has already failed to answer. They're everything that's wrong with the previous society and will end the same way, or worse. I don't think I even need to argue this, as the game already does it for me.
The Legion, on the other hand, actually tries to solve this problem. When they conquer a group, they make sure to painfully instill a set of values in every individual. Among these values, is an aversion to technology, specifically if it's used for war. They stick to weapons that they can build themselves and take pride in their physical prowess above all else. Fighting is about spilling blood, not pressing buttons. If you tell Caesar to use House's robots in the Dam, he'll tell you the following "You don't get it, do you? The weapons I wield are forged from blood, flesh, sinew, bone - mortal stuff. Fragile, even. And yet my Legion obeys me, even unto death. Why? Because they live to serve the greater good, and they know of no alternatives. House's machines, his technologies - what do they propose? The possibility of victory without sacrifice. No blood spilled, just... rivets. That's not an idea to be put in circulation. If mankind's going to survive this moment in history, it needs warriors, not gadgets."
Agree or disagree, this is an answer (and a decently solid one) to the larger problem put forward in the series. All the problems we've pointed out about the Legion can be overcome with time, but when it comes to using technology to win wars, once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't go back. The BOS, despite all their efforts, failed to do that. And there's nothing more important than preventing humanity from destroying everything.
But what if Caesar dies? While it would be better if, once he had his "Rome", he picks an heir who isn't just a warrior, but can also see the greater picture, even if he sticks with Lanius, the impact the Legion will have in the Wasteland will be felt for many generations, long after the Legion falls. The "synthesis" will happen regardless at that point and some of the ideas/values and genetics, will remain. When the Legion falls, what likely won't happen, will be nuclear war. There won't be an endless army of robot overlords (like there would be when House finally dies), there won't be a corrupt row of officers ready to destroy the world to preserve a decaying empire, etc. If there's a faction with a problem bubbling beneath the surface, waiting to explode, it's the NCR, as the game repeatedly explains. The Legion's problems are all out in the open for everyone to see, but the faction definitely works.
Vitriolit, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Probably, only now, with your mentioning of Fallout's central theme (a.k.a. humanity will self-destruct) in the context of your narrative, I can fully understand the phrase "War never changes". May sound silly, but I always thought about it as "no matter what the living conditions are, people will kill each other", because, you know, in Fallout universe there are so much dangers and stuff, but people still encroach on the lives of their own kind. But now it's like the puzzle has come together. Kudos
I'm glad you liked it. You're right about the meaning of "war never changes". And war won't change until human nature does. Until then, it's only a race towards total annihilation. So how do we change human nature?
New Vegas is all about these questions, with the NCR representing the "we don't change, we just try again" option. While the Legion acts as the grim reaper of the wasteland that punishes humanity in general for being weak and tries to teach them "lessons". It's almost theatrical, which is one of the reasons they feel like a comic book villain, even though they're actually trying to solve the riddle in their own way.
Like Nipton. If the Legion is the "nuke", then the mayor is the politician who launches it, dooming all the inhabitants and escaping into his bunker. Except he never makes it, the Legion catches all of them in the trap, before the Mayor has time to reach his safe-house. And so Vulpes proceeds to tell them their "sins" and even gives them a chance to fight for their town. But they don't, they accept their fates in the lottery, because they aren't loyal to each other, they would all sell one another for profit. And so the town is reduced to ashes.
A great allegory of mankind's self-destructive tendencies.
people defending the legion is hilarious cause all of your arguments are swept away when they are literal murderous slavers who subject women and others they dont like to very cruel conditions
hey, can you make an mod where the members of BoS use different PA according with his rank.
Like Knights use T-45, Paladins use T-51, and some special Characters use the T-60 like the Lyon Pride members and Paladin Hardin and Ramos. You can use FO4 Power Armor for TTW from Dragbody/Hermit to make this mod
45 comments
When it comes to House, the game guilt trips the player into helping him over everyone else. House saves the player when he doesn't have to, House makes the player his protégé, House immediately gives you the Lucky 38, no one in the game shows as much faith in the player from the start as him. Even if you disagree with his vision, few would actually betray him, if they were being honest, especially for other factions that don't show the same level of appreciation.
And then there's Yes Man, the "I know what's best" option. Which could've been more balanced if it had more "AI might go rogue" moments. As it stands, these are the two easy go-to choices that remove all the challenge, as far as morality is concerned.
The Legion works, because it has both the good and the bad, just like the NCR. Removing these tougher options makes the game worse, not better, even if they aren't all that fleshed out either.
I like the NCR maybe you like the Legion if i wrote a essay on how the NCR would win you would probably prefer the legion.
Why comment on this mod winging about it if your not going to use it, people who do use this mod use it for their personal use and should not be swayed by someone else's opinion.
When you find the "good", get back to me. Because the only good thing about living in Legion society that's stated in game is that the roads are safe from raiders and gangs, which doesn't even come close to making up for the institutionalized slavery, genocide of every culture it comes into contact with, and the relegation of women to the role of breeding stock. Likewise, the whole "roads being safe for traders" thing really applies to the NCR as well if you pay attention. Gangs like the Jackals and Vipers used to be much bigger threats out West before the rise of the NCR and consolidation of California, and by the time of New Vegas they've been chased all the way to the Mojave and are all nothing shadows of their former selves.
The Legion as it's presented in New Vegas are clearly the villains, and they aren't even particularly interesting ones because of how mustache-twirling they are and how much of a foul-mouthed walking contradiction Caesar himself is. I mean how many times do NPCs tell you that the Legion is doomed to fall once good ol' Eddy dies because of how little effort he put into building actual institutions and governmental structures? The Legion isn't a real faction, it's a giant cult of personality built on unquestionable loyalty to a man, and once that loyalty is shaken, as we see with Silus, Graham, and Ulysses, there is nothing else holding it together. It's like Marcus said, the Legion follows Caesar, not his ideals. For all the criticism the NCR gets for being corrupt and disfunctional, the Legion is 10x worse, it's just all bubbling beneath the surface, waiting to explode.
So no, IMO, the Legion doesn't work. It doesn't work in gameplay terms because of how little there is to do for them outside of killing a bunch of people and becoming a mustache twirler yourself, and it doesn't work as an actual government form because of how insanely it's structured. Part of me wishes that Obsidian would have gone with another idea and left the Legion to collect dust in Van Buren.
The Legion is the new kid on the block, it's barely "civilized", not only because it hasn't had the time, but because it's essentially an amalgamation of ultra-violent tribes. To expect such a faction to be "nicer" at that point in time would be unrealistic, especially when they're at war and their soldiers are all the player comes into contact with in the game. Given the in-game descriptions of said tribes, it's already a miracle that they all work together for a common goal that is higher than just themselves and abide by a strict set of values.
Caesar acknowledges these problems, he even says he is looking forward to a synthesis where the Legion's values merge with the rest of the Wasteland's and they get to develop as a faction. The Legion in its current state, is an instrument of war, by necessity, as their entire survival is at stake. Why would he waste the few years he has left building institutions, when those would all be destroyed by the NCR, if he loses the war? Is the Legion a cult of personality? To some extent yes, but it's also more than that. The effects of the genocide you mentioned, as well as the values the Legion forces upon the tribes they conquer, will endure after Caesar's death. The Legion is actually changing the people of the Wasteland, both physically and mentally, by extreme means.
So what's actually good about the Legion? I won't waste time with small stuff like safe roads and less corruption. Instead, let's start with the main problem in Fallout, how do you prevent humanity from annihilating itself? The NCR has already failed to answer. They're everything that's wrong with the previous society and will end the same way, or worse. I don't think I even need to argue this, as the game already does it for me.
The Legion, on the other hand, actually tries to solve this problem. When they conquer a group, they make sure to painfully instill a set of values in every individual. Among these values, is an aversion to technology, specifically if it's used for war. They stick to weapons that they can build themselves and take pride in their physical prowess above all else. Fighting is about spilling blood, not pressing buttons. If you tell Caesar to use House's robots in the Dam, he'll tell you the following "You don't get it, do you? The weapons I wield are forged from blood, flesh, sinew, bone - mortal stuff. Fragile, even. And yet my Legion obeys me, even unto death. Why? Because they live to serve the greater good, and they know of no alternatives. House's machines, his technologies - what do they propose? The possibility of victory without sacrifice. No blood spilled, just... rivets. That's not an idea to be put in circulation. If mankind's going to survive this moment in history, it needs warriors, not gadgets."
Agree or disagree, this is an answer (and a decently solid one) to the larger problem put forward in the series. All the problems we've pointed out about the Legion can be overcome with time, but when it comes to using technology to win wars, once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't go back. The BOS, despite all their efforts, failed to do that. And there's nothing more important than preventing humanity from destroying everything.
But what if Caesar dies? While it would be better if, once he had his "Rome", he picks an heir who isn't just a warrior, but can also see the greater picture, even if he sticks with Lanius, the impact the Legion will have in the Wasteland will be felt for many generations, long after the Legion falls. The "synthesis" will happen regardless at that point and some of the ideas/values and genetics, will remain. When the Legion falls, what likely won't happen, will be nuclear war. There won't be an endless army of robot overlords (like there would be when House finally dies), there won't be a corrupt row of officers ready to destroy the world to preserve a decaying empire, etc.
If there's a faction with a problem bubbling beneath the surface, waiting to explode, it's the NCR, as the game repeatedly explains. The Legion's problems are all out in the open for everyone to see, but the faction definitely works.
New Vegas is all about these questions, with the NCR representing the "we don't change, we just try again" option. While the Legion acts as the grim reaper of the wasteland that punishes humanity in general for being weak and tries to teach them "lessons". It's almost theatrical, which is one of the reasons they feel like a comic book villain, even though they're actually trying to solve the riddle in their own way.
Like Nipton. If the Legion is the "nuke", then the mayor is the politician who launches it, dooming all the inhabitants and escaping into his bunker. Except he never makes it, the Legion catches all of them in the trap, before the Mayor has time to reach his safe-house. And so Vulpes proceeds to tell them their "sins" and even gives them a chance to fight for their town. But they don't, they accept their fates in the lottery, because they aren't loyal to each other, they would all sell one another for profit. And so the town is reduced to ashes.
A great allegory of mankind's self-destructive tendencies.
Like Knights use T-45, Paladins use T-51, and some special Characters use the T-60 like the Lyon Pride members and Paladin Hardin and Ramos. You can use FO4 Power Armor for TTW from Dragbody/Hermit to make this mod