Very nice. I have been missing this in requiem. I always found it super annoying that i did not know exactly what a perk did. Take for instance the elemental mastery perks: Nowhere does it say that your character now can do 11 destro spells instead of 10. It is obvious your character himself would know this, it is like doing 11 pull ups instead of 10. But for some reason, you the player is not privy to this information.
Also no matter how advanced the math it should be possibly to present it easy in one or two sentences, because at the end any math can be reduced to simple numbers no matter how advanced the calculation in itself.
Hiding the exact numbers isn't just a design choice but a necessity. The exact description often requires multiple sentences that are too technical to be understood by the average user. The best example for this are the illusion perks but it even applies to simple perks like the smithing perks. Legendary Smithing says "[...] can even temper the most ancient artifacts with 50% increased effectiveness..." and Daedric Smithing says "[...] are able to temper them with 100% increased effectiveness." How is the user supposed to know if that means he can temper deadric weapons by 150% (50 + 100) or 300% (1.5 * 2.0)? Not to mention that the actual number is neither of those because that's not how tempering works in Skyrim.
How is e.g. "[...] while your newfound knowledge also allows you to augment all Illusion spells by up to 100%." more informative than "[...] while your newfound knowledge also allows you to augment the strength and duration of all Illusion spells."? The actual effect is "multiply the magnitude and duration of all illusion spells by 1 + (illusion skill / 100). If you have Apprentice Illusion, the multiplication only applies to Novice spells." Your description can actually be misleading because when you take the perk it only increases the strength of illusion spells by 5-15%.
When quickly skimming through the plugin, I noticed several wrong descriptions like Gruesome Shot, War Axe Specialization, Battle Axe Specialization and Improved Healing.
Yo, thanks for the advice. I already noticed some of those issues while playing and reflecting about the mechanics (like more magnitude for armor spells actually means more duration, concerning Improved Healing), so they will definitely be taken care of in the next update, coming very soon. Just have some mercy on someone, who just worked through hundreds of perks multiple times in his 2nd language (accompanied by some czech beer). My eyes became almost rectangular. ^^
But I'd argue your point about all that being a necessity.
First off, Skyrim didn't have those "You've learned to become XYZ while ...". Skyrim just slapped the perk effect directly into your face. And I'd say, for good. Skill trees are there to display vital game information and rules, not half a story of you becoming a "masterly mace fighter". The latter should definitely be part of the overall game experience, but not necessarily the skill menu. These story bits are kind of nice and it would also hurt a little to get rid of them, but I might eventually consider it.
PerMa and Requiem were the first designs I've ever seen making their talent descriptions purely immersive. Every board game, D&D clones, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, The Witcher and TES of course, all the games I've played have numbers in their talent descriptions. Heck, Witcher 3's skill trees straight-out sucked and this game still was one of the most immersive video game experiences I've ever had! And to top it off: Compared to Skyrim's skill system, all other skill systems can suck some major dick. This mix of "learning-by-doing" and unrestricted talent trees, which provide tons of emergent gameplay, is very unique and works amazingly well, when polished over years of modding... So I find it all the more important to provide clear information of what they do, which I admittedly might've failed on some parts...
Furthermore, all perk effects that don't have "direct" successors, which replace the former effect (like XYZ Specialization 1/2/3), stack multiplicatively: VALUE * (1 + effect1) * (1 + effect2) * ... The user is supposed to know just this and it has always been like this in Skyrim. It's not rocket science, at all. If the user didn't care before, he won't care now as well... or knows his high school maths.
Another argument/opinion of mine would be, that your concern still doesn't affect what I feel when I look at Requiem's original descriptions - a lack of self-empowerment and information. And I don't think it's just me...
I knew, that this wouldn't be perfect from the get go. I knew I couldn't describe everything without making mistakes and without the help of other people. Comments such as yours really help a ton.
Having gone through everything once again, I corrected most of what you suggested. However, I couldn't find what's wrong with Gruesome Shot and War Axe Specialization. The target's damage resistance is multiplied with "zero point something", resulting in a percentage loss of armor, which I describe as "ignoring" or "penetrating". The numbers are correct, trust me. ^^
Skyrim just slapped the perk effect directly into your face
There are many instances where that isn't true. Three random examples from vanilla: - Necromancy: "Greater duration for reanimated undead." - Disarming Bash:"Chance to disarm when power bashing." - Deep Freeze: "Frost damage paralyzes targets if their health is low." Requiem didn't hide the numbers, it just made the descriptions more fluffy.
Furthermore, all perk effects that don't have "direct" successors, which replace the former effect (like XYZ Specialization 1/2/3), stack multiplicatively: VALUE * (1 + effect1) * (1 + effect2) * ... The user is supposed to know just this and it has always been like this in Skyrim. It's not rocket science, at all.
That's not true. Vanilla skyrim has very little perks that stack multiplicative and afaik only in crafting skills. All enchantments, potions and even some perks like Immunization stack additively.
I'll be more concret with my main criticism (and please take it as constructive criticism): In many instances your descriptions don't uncover what a perk actually does but simply smack a meaningless number into Requiem's description. I'll take Daedric Smithing as an example again. What is the user supposed to gain from "[...] are able to temper them with 100% increased effectiveness."? In reality he can only temper daedric weapons by about 20%. Same story for the main magic perks and many others.
Vanilla Skyrim has very simple perks. There is exactly one perk that increases weapon damage, exactly one perk that adds armor penetration, exactly one perk that increases spell magnitude/duration and so on. There is no need to explain how perks work, yet alone how they stack. Requiem however features more complex perks. This brings me back to my initial point: The exact description often requires multiple sentences that are too technical to be understood by the average user. To clarify, I mean by "too technical to be understood by the average user" that you can't put a comprehensive and descriptive explanation in one or two sentences. Requiem's manual has a whole page regarding tempering but it barely explains anything. Good luck fitting that into a perk description.
Your comparison with Mass Effect and Dragon Age ignores an important aspect: These games have mutually exclusive perks. You must know what these perks do in order to make your choice. In Requiem perk choices are much simpler. You want to use swords? You better pick every perk that mentions swords! You want to temper a daedric sword? You better pick Daedric Smithing! I have never played D&D games but from what I gathered they heavily rely on a manual and not just ingame numbers.
I agree that Requiem lacks explanation of what their perks actually do but I don't believe that's something that can or should be explained ingame. I think it's more expedient to uncover such information in a detailed manual. If you want to know what most of the perks really do, you have to consult an external source anyway even if the numbers are exposed. And as long as you don't really care what your perks do besides making you stronger in the respective skill, Requiem's fluffy perk descriptions do the job.
more magnitude for armor spells actually means more duration, concerning Improved Healing
Armor spells work normally. More magnitude = more armor buff, more duration = armor buff lasts longer. The problem with Improved Healing is that you added NPC-exlusive effects to the description. The player only gets +25% magnitude for healing spells.
I couldn't find what's wrong with Gruesome Shot and War Axe Specialization
They stack with their predecessors. Now whether that's intended or not, is a different question but if you expose the numbers you must expose the correct numbers.
Wow, regarding Improved Healing and that armor penetration stuff I really had some tomatoes on my eyes. They make way more sense now. Thanks!
Sorry, if I appeared a bit harsh. It's just ... my baby. D:
[...] as long as you don't really care what your perks do [...] Requiem's fluffy perk descriptions do the job.
If you want to know what most of the perks really do, you have to consult an external source [...]
This.
The thing is, I care and I read through Requiem's entire manual. And like you said, it doesn't explain much for perks. I've even gone through the changelogs, but it's quite easy to miss something in there and not funny at all to read. The wiki only features 6 perk trees. The subreddit just copy-pasted their in-game descriptions... The only good things are the CK or TES5Edit, which is a bit much for comfort and the average user anyway.
A video game should be readable enough on its own and I already need hours to define each character I create, not only roleplay-wise, but numbers-wise as well. I wouldn't have considered taking the non-crafting perks of Alchemy for instance, "my perk points are too valuable for these shenanigans" I thought and now I know they grant 100 (!!!) points to all attributes and crazy regeneration. That's absolutely nuts (and should be nerfed). Similarly with some Light Armor perks, it wasn't explained how they interact with Heavy Armor. The majority of perks didn't clarify when they scaled with skill levels. I want to know such things beforehand, preferably in-game.
Regarding the Smithing stuff. I fail to see what's wrong with them. Maybe this is some kind of intricate language barrier thing. You could temper daedric weapons for 10% more damage without the perk and for 20% with perk. Does my description sound like you could improve its total damage by 100%? Is that what you mean? The middle tree makes things a bit tricky and I begin to see that it isn't quite clear how it interacts with the other perks, but I'd say that's manageable overall.
Let's not continue the off-topic I forced (sorry) ... What other games or vanilla Skyrim do shouldn't be that important.
Your suggestion to take it as it is and read it up elsewhere sounds kinda destructive, doesn't work well and defeats the purpose. This is exactly what I didn't want to do in my future yearly playthroughs and what I want this mod to solve for other peeps as well.
But... since you wrote such an elaborate wall of text, it seems, you're kind of interested to improve aspects of this mod. To make it short: How do you imagine this mod should be? Are there other perks where you think, it's worth debating about whether they need numbers or not? Are there specific phrases I can refine? - This is the good stuff. I'm afraid, everything else will just bounce off my pighead. ^^
it seems, you're kind of interested to improve aspects of this mod. To make it short: How do you imagine this mod should be?
I was interested in your rationale behind exposing the exact numbers and how you want to achieve that as well as explaining the rationale behind Requiem's fluffy perk descriptions. The fluffy perk descriptions are one of the more controversial aspects of Requiem so I'm naturally interested in possible improvements (I'm one of the Requiem Dungeon Masters in case you didn't know). But so far I haven't seen a convincing alternative.
I wouldn't have considered taking the non-crafting perks of Alchemy for instance, "my perk points are too valuable for these shenanigans" I thought and now I know they grant 100 (!!!) points to all attributes and crazy regeneration.
That's a good point.
You could temper daedric weapons for 10% more damage without the perk and for 20% with perk.
You can't temper daedric weapons at all without the perk. Assume you have 1 perk to spend and have to choose between Daedric Smithing and Immunization. How does the specification of 100% help you with making a decision? It could mean +1 damage gets buffed to +2 damage or it could mean +100 damage gets buffed to +200.
I want to know such things beforehand, preferably in-game.
How do you want to achieve the in-game aspect? In case of the more complex perks you don't expose more numbers than Requiem. There are even examples where one aspect of a perk contains the exact number and the other not, e.g. Greatsword Specialization: "You've learned the basics of greatsword combat, allowing you to increase your attack rate as well as armor penetration with them by 10%." Some perks having exact numbers and other perks having vague descriptions looks awfully inconsistent in my opinion. But I guess that depends on personal preference.
Sounds great to me. Is it going to cover every possible mechanic and make everything 100% clear? Probably not, but honestly? It clarifies things just enough for me so that I finally won't need to use an additional page of notes sitting on my desk IRL/alt-tab out of the game whenever I want to choose an unknown perk. Am I a filthy, filthy power gamer? Probably, character management is a HUGE part of my gaming joy. But I so happen to love Requiem regardless, though it comes much more from the coherent mechanical changes it makes to the game than the roleplaying ones Sorry, dear devs! I'd give you an e-hug, but I don't know if you'd want my heretic paws touching you
For example that finesse perk. Just adding the bit about the heavy armor pieces affecting it is a major deal for me. Much more than the number itself (I'm no mathematician, getting 12.5% out of ?? is beyond my capabilities ).
I like to know that the ice perk also reduces the spell cost (and by how much - this I can actually count ). Etc.
Thank you SOOO much for this! I just started a play through with requiem as I was a big fan of the authors previous overhauls but the frustratingly vague perk descriptions where really starting to get to me, I love immersion as much as the next guy but that really ends at a perk menu in which case I just want to know exactly what I'm using my hard earned perk points on.
Edit. Turns out I was thinking about (and downloaded this for) the wrong mod ... woops.
Could you perhaps list the Requiem version the mod applies to in the "files" section for the main download? Might help in the future if there are hotfixes/patches/updates. Keep people from complaining later on "waaah it doesn't work" when it's just because they're using an older/newer version of Requiem.
Generally, it depends on what makes you feel immersed personally.
If you look at the descriptions and are okay with it, go with the original design. I can't empathize with this though... Maybe I'm just a whiny power gamer, fighting with Requiem's anti-power-gaming philosophy. I wouldn't want to have any other overhaul though. With this bad boy installed, Skyrim feels like what it should've been in the first place - a true sequel of Morrowind. Yes, it's THAT good!
To keep it short, here are my arguments against the original perk descriptions:
1. Numbers and units (e.g. "points of Health") convey meaning just as well as words do and thus, can immerse you just as well. 2. Numbers and units can describe things very precisely and support my feeling of self-empowerment in games, because they help compare stuff. 3. Words are ambiguous. With just words alone, I can't be quite sure what everything does, what the rules and dimensions of the game are. 4. I uncovered some functions in the new descriptions, that weren't even mentioned in the original ones (e.g. Finesse, Improved Healing). Requiem genuinely "shrouded" some of its functionality.
If you ask me, of course I'm going to recommend you to run my mod. ;)
But by all means, do as you please... Just run original Requiem and look at the perks. If they don't bother you at all, fine. If they leave some question marks in your head and somehow don't feel that empowering, come here again. ^_^
18 comments
I always found it super annoying that i did not know exactly what a perk did.
Take for instance the elemental mastery perks: Nowhere does it say that your character now can do 11 destro spells instead of 10. It is obvious your character himself would know this, it is like doing 11 pull ups instead of 10. But for some reason, you the player is not privy to this information.
Also no matter how advanced the math it should be possibly to present it easy in one or two sentences, because at the end any math can be reduced to simple numbers no matter how advanced the calculation in itself.
How is e.g. "[...] while your newfound knowledge also allows you to augment all Illusion spells by up to 100%." more informative than "[...] while your newfound knowledge also allows you to augment the strength and duration of all Illusion spells."? The actual effect is "multiply the magnitude and duration of all illusion spells by 1 + (illusion skill / 100). If you have Apprentice Illusion, the multiplication only applies to Novice spells." Your description can actually be misleading because when you take the perk it only increases the strength of illusion spells by 5-15%.
When quickly skimming through the plugin, I noticed several wrong descriptions like Gruesome Shot, War Axe Specialization, Battle Axe Specialization and Improved Healing.
But I'd argue your point about all that being a necessity.
First off, Skyrim didn't have those "You've learned to become XYZ while ...". Skyrim just slapped the perk effect directly into your face. And I'd say, for good. Skill trees are there to display vital game information and rules, not half a story of you becoming a "masterly mace fighter". The latter should definitely be part of the overall game experience, but not necessarily the skill menu. These story bits are kind of nice and it would also hurt a little to get rid of them, but I might eventually consider it.
PerMa and Requiem were the first designs I've ever seen making their talent descriptions purely immersive. Every board game, D&D clones, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, The Witcher and TES of course, all the games I've played have numbers in their talent descriptions. Heck, Witcher 3's skill trees straight-out sucked and this game still was one of the most immersive video game experiences I've ever had! And to top it off: Compared to Skyrim's skill system, all other skill systems can suck some major dick. This mix of "learning-by-doing" and unrestricted talent trees, which provide tons of emergent gameplay, is very unique and works amazingly well, when polished over years of modding...
So I find it all the more important to provide clear information of what they do, which I admittedly might've failed on some parts...
Furthermore, all perk effects that don't have "direct" successors, which replace the former effect (like XYZ Specialization 1/2/3), stack multiplicatively: VALUE * (1 + effect1) * (1 + effect2) * ... The user is supposed to know just this and it has always been like this in Skyrim. It's not rocket science, at all. If the user didn't care before, he won't care now as well... or knows his high school maths.
Another argument/opinion of mine would be, that your concern still doesn't affect what I feel when I look at Requiem's original descriptions - a lack of self-empowerment and information. And I don't think it's just me...
I knew, that this wouldn't be perfect from the get go. I knew I couldn't describe everything without making mistakes and without the help of other people. Comments such as yours really help a ton.
There are many instances where that isn't true. Three random examples from vanilla:
- Necromancy: "Greater duration for reanimated undead."
- Disarming Bash:"Chance to disarm when power bashing."
- Deep Freeze: "Frost damage paralyzes targets if their health is low."
Requiem didn't hide the numbers, it just made the descriptions more fluffy.
That's not true. Vanilla skyrim has very little perks that stack multiplicative and afaik only in crafting skills. All enchantments, potions and even some perks like Immunization stack additively.
I'll be more concret with my main criticism (and please take it as constructive criticism): In many instances your descriptions don't uncover what a perk actually does but simply smack a meaningless number into Requiem's description. I'll take Daedric Smithing as an example again. What is the user supposed to gain from "[...] are able to temper them with 100% increased effectiveness."? In reality he can only temper daedric weapons by about 20%. Same story for the main magic perks and many others.
Vanilla Skyrim has very simple perks. There is exactly one perk that increases weapon damage, exactly one perk that adds armor penetration, exactly one perk that increases spell magnitude/duration and so on. There is no need to explain how perks work, yet alone how they stack. Requiem however features more complex perks. This brings me back to my initial point: The exact description often requires multiple sentences that are too technical to be understood by the average user. To clarify, I mean by "too technical to be understood by the average user" that you can't put a comprehensive and descriptive explanation in one or two sentences. Requiem's manual has a whole page regarding tempering but it barely explains anything. Good luck fitting that into a perk description.
Your comparison with Mass Effect and Dragon Age ignores an important aspect: These games have mutually exclusive perks. You must know what these perks do in order to make your choice. In Requiem perk choices are much simpler. You want to use swords? You better pick every perk that mentions swords! You want to temper a daedric sword? You better pick Daedric Smithing! I have never played D&D games but from what I gathered they heavily rely on a manual and not just ingame numbers.
I agree that Requiem lacks explanation of what their perks actually do but I don't believe that's something that can or should be explained ingame. I think it's more expedient to uncover such information in a detailed manual. If you want to know what most of the perks really do, you have to consult an external source anyway even if the numbers are exposed. And as long as you don't really care what your perks do besides making you stronger in the respective skill, Requiem's fluffy perk descriptions do the job.
Armor spells work normally. More magnitude = more armor buff, more duration = armor buff lasts longer. The problem with Improved Healing is that you added NPC-exlusive effects to the description. The player only gets +25% magnitude for healing spells.
They stack with their predecessors. Now whether that's intended or not, is a different question but if you expose the numbers you must expose the correct numbers.
Sorry, if I appeared a bit harsh. It's just ... my baby. D:
This.
The thing is, I care and I read through Requiem's entire manual. And like you said, it doesn't explain much for perks. I've even gone through the changelogs, but it's quite easy to miss something in there and not funny at all to read. The wiki only features 6 perk trees. The subreddit just copy-pasted their in-game descriptions... The only good things are the CK or TES5Edit, which is a bit much for comfort and the average user anyway.
A video game should be readable enough on its own and I already need hours to define each character I create, not only roleplay-wise, but numbers-wise as well. I wouldn't have considered taking the non-crafting perks of Alchemy for instance, "my perk points are too valuable for these shenanigans" I thought and now I know they grant 100 (!!!) points to all attributes and crazy regeneration. That's absolutely nuts (and should be nerfed).
Similarly with some Light Armor perks, it wasn't explained how they interact with Heavy Armor. The majority of perks didn't clarify when they scaled with skill levels. I want to know such things beforehand, preferably in-game.
Regarding the Smithing stuff. I fail to see what's wrong with them. Maybe this is some kind of intricate language barrier thing. You could temper daedric weapons for 10% more damage without the perk and for 20% with perk. Does my description sound like you could improve its total damage by 100%? Is that what you mean?
The middle tree makes things a bit tricky and I begin to see that it isn't quite clear how it interacts with the other perks, but I'd say that's manageable overall.
Let's not continue the off-topic I forced (sorry) ... What other games or vanilla Skyrim do shouldn't be that important.
Your suggestion to take it as it is and read it up elsewhere sounds kinda destructive, doesn't work well and defeats the purpose. This is exactly what I didn't want to do in my future yearly playthroughs and what I want this mod to solve for other peeps as well.
But... since you wrote such an elaborate wall of text, it seems, you're kind of interested to improve aspects of this mod. To make it short: How do you imagine this mod should be? Are there other perks where you think, it's worth debating about whether they need numbers or not? Are there specific phrases I can refine? - This is the good stuff. I'm afraid, everything else will just bounce off my pighead. ^^
I was interested in your rationale behind exposing the exact numbers and how you want to achieve that as well as explaining the rationale behind Requiem's fluffy perk descriptions. The fluffy perk descriptions are one of the more controversial aspects of Requiem so I'm naturally interested in possible improvements (I'm one of the Requiem Dungeon Masters in case you didn't know). But so far I haven't seen a convincing alternative.
That's a good point.
You can't temper daedric weapons at all without the perk. Assume you have 1 perk to spend and have to choose between Daedric Smithing and Immunization. How does the specification of 100% help you with making a decision? It could mean +1 damage gets buffed to +2 damage or it could mean +100 damage gets buffed to +200.
How do you want to achieve the in-game aspect? In case of the more complex perks you don't expose more numbers than Requiem. There are even examples where one aspect of a perk contains the exact number and the other not, e.g. Greatsword Specialization: "You've learned the basics of greatsword combat, allowing you to increase your attack rate as well as armor penetration with them by 10%." Some perks having exact numbers and other perks having vague descriptions looks awfully inconsistent in my opinion. But I guess that depends on personal preference.
For example that finesse perk. Just adding the bit about the heavy armor pieces affecting it is a major deal for me. Much more than the number itself (I'm no mathematician, getting 12.5% out of ?? is beyond my capabilities
I like to know that the ice perk also reduces the spell cost (and by how much - this I can actually count
Edit. Turns out I was thinking about (and downloaded this for) the wrong mod ... woops.
Will there ever be a BtC version ?
Good day to you.
If you look at the descriptions and are okay with it, go with the original design. I can't empathize with this though... Maybe I'm just a whiny power gamer, fighting with Requiem's anti-power-gaming philosophy.
I wouldn't want to have any other overhaul though. With this bad boy installed, Skyrim feels like what it should've been in the first place - a true sequel of Morrowind. Yes, it's THAT good!
To keep it short, here are my arguments against the original perk descriptions:
1. Numbers and units (e.g. "points of Health") convey meaning just as well as words do and thus, can immerse you just as well.
2. Numbers and units can describe things very precisely and support my feeling of self-empowerment in games, because they help compare stuff.
3. Words are ambiguous. With just words alone, I can't be quite sure what everything does, what the rules and dimensions of the game are.
4. I uncovered some functions in the new descriptions, that weren't even mentioned in the original ones (e.g. Finesse, Improved Healing). Requiem genuinely "shrouded" some of its functionality.
If you ask me, of course I'm going to recommend you to run my mod. ;)
But by all means, do as you please... Just run original Requiem and look at the perks. If they don't bother you at all, fine.
If they leave some question marks in your head and somehow don't feel that empowering, come here again. ^_^