General Recommendations for better Stealth Gameplay
1. Turn off"ENB/Particle Light" Detection.
A lot of new texture/mesh mods add aesthetic lights to weapons, armor, jewelry etc..
Normally, these lights aren't detected by NPCs and they are purely aesthetic. But CS and ENB have plugins/settings that make NPCs detect them and are often enabled by default.
For stealth-based playthroughs, I recommend disabling them.
For CS, you can disable the "Particle Light Detection" setting in the light limit fix menu.
In ENB, it's a from .dll plugin so check for something like "ENB light detection" in your mod manager.
For instance, I had a mod installed that made Staves glow via enb light. Because I also had immersive equipment display installed, when I just had a staff favorited (not even equipped) I would become instantly detected. Disabling ENB/CS light detection fixed this issue for me.
I can't tell if I'm doing something wrong, but the spell patch seems to completely disable the light emitted by the candlelight and magelight spells even when not sneaking.
Check if it's happening in third person. Depending on the mesh for the casting light, the light on the casting light while standing may not be visible while in first person (it's still there though). There are some meshes on nexus that supposedly work for first person
Thanks for the reply. It may have been an older version of the plugin or something. I had a look with xedit and found that it had altered the light record referenced by the candlelight / magelight spell, but on re-install it no longer does.
It was actually the DisableSpellLight_Prebuilt.esp that was causing it, as it disables the light "MagicLightLightSpell01", which is used for the candlelight and magelight spells.
Isn't the spell one more like a feature? It makes sense to me that if you're walking around with bright magic spells in your hands, you will be easier to spot. I know I can just turn the fix off, but just my thoughts.
It depends on the context. The fix isn't really needed for vanilla stealth since sneak is so OP and light barely affects the detection formula. Nonetheless, I doubt it was intended to happen in vanilla because of the presence of quite a few stealth-related spells (a detection mechanic just for being a mage existing in the presence of those sneak spells would be counter intuitive imo). It's just that vanilla detection is so bad in general that I think the developers failed to notice or care that you even could get detected from your spell's lights
With mods installed that make light matter more (like raid for instance) having a spell equipped makes sneaking impossible; you end up getting spotted immediately from the other end of a dungeon. You can't even equip illusion spells that were intended to be used while sneaking without being detected. Even if you wait to use them (by keeping your hands down) you will still often get detected immediately upon readying them. In this context, it is very much a fix.
It should be said the sneak light fix offered in the FOMOD is just a pregenerated output from my synthesis patcher, Disable Spell Light Emission. If you use the synthesis patcher instead of the the pregenerated output, (which is what I would recommend btw), you can select to limit the fix to just illusion spells for instance.
Hey do we still need the stealth light fix if we're using strange runes? It has option in MCM to disable lights on sneak but doesn't need patcher. Just wondering if these two fixes are the same to your knowledge?
That setting is for the strange rune's light themselves not the spell's lights. So if want ALL light disabled on sneak u enable that setting in the mcm AND use my mod.
Hi, I read the description but Im not sure which option could fix npcs detecting and walking towards you when you use spells like frenzy, or if any of the options could help with that?
I thought so too but it didnt help. Im not expert but I think it is because Frenzy is technically a projectile which hits a target, so when you shoot it it and it hits something it alerts enemies and they start searching for you even walk towards your direct location without being fully detected yet
Your welcome! I didn't plan on expanding this mod as much as I did. It certainly did not need an mcm on the initial release. But the more I added to it, the more I realized it was time for MCM 🤣
I see you removed the tweaks and they are not in the fomod of version 2. It will be fine to update and lose the plugin for attack detection tweak? I see that they can be disable or enable in the mcm so that's great. Thanks for the update too!
I've done some testing and I found out that Sleeping NPC Detection Fix disables detection entirely.
Test variables: Skyrim v1.6.1170; Req. installed (latest versions); New game; Sneak tested at default 15 and after that at 0 (set through console); Tests conclusions: - stealth walking/running/jumping has no effect, you can literally jump on them repeatedly without any consequence. - normal/power attacks go completely unnoticed unless it directly hits an NPC, you can play tennis with all the clutter items around them and they won't even budge. - casting spells does nothing, you can set the entire house on fire without anyone noticing as long as you don't target them directly.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea, detection is turned OFF completely while NPCs are sleeping and the player is in sneak mode.
I decided not to post this in the bug section because there is a slight chance I misunderstood the description and could run into the "It's not a bug, it's a feature" conundrum. Feel free to move it there yourself otherwise.
Yeah that's what it does. If your not sneaking, their detection is vanilla as you said. Additionally, if the player is ever discovered or enters combat, it reverts to vanilla as well.
It's one of those things where you are better off if you don't think about it too much.
Sleep detection gets completely messed up by any game setting changes. Your options with it are either to have it be over-detecting (where anything you do wakes them up) or under-detecting as is in my mod. I prefer the latter. The middle ground, "just right", option only exists in vanilla stealth, (and if your using vanilla stealth, you don't really need the fix). Trying to make it more dynamic (as in reacting to jumping, weapon swings, or spells) would be way too script heavy and wouldn't work responsively.
In the future, I might add an actual<GetMovementSpeed(PlayerRef) condition and/or a >GetDistance(PlayerRef) to it as well (as that would be negligible-performance wise) but that would be the furthest I'd be willing go. And then it would still be very binary going On/Off if conditions are met, not a dynamic formula thing.
EDIT: I think them not reacting to spells or jumping is just vanilla behavior as well. See the gif below where I had my mod disabled.
I used both RAID and DWTBD in my tests, without those mods your fixes would not be really needed. With those two mods active, while Sleeping NPC Detection Fix was disabled, I can say for certain that swinging a weapon, or using that exact same fire spell anywhere in the vicinity of the sleeping NPCs, triggered their detection immediately (on every test run, even with Sneak skill and perks maxed out).
The lack of reaction to jumping directly on them was present when I artificially increased sneak to ~100 and added a few perks: Stealth, Muffled Movement and Silence. In comparison you cannot do this without Silence perk at any skill level, and with your mod active, you can do it with 0 Sneak skill and no perks at all.
The idea is great, there really should be a mechanic that allows some way to perform silent kills, however this approach is more like a cheat than anything else, it disables any chance of being detected (unless you purposely exit sneak, which makes no sense), removing all of the suspense and sense of achievement from the action.
I think you misunderstood the point of the mod. The idea is to return vanilla behavior to some stealth mechanics that become oversensitive as a side effect of stealth mods. If you prefer one of the modded mechanics, don't install the fix for it.
Edit: At the end of the day, a lot of these are not things people will run into during normal gameplay. Who, while sneaking, jumps on an npc or swings their weapon against a wall or casts spells against no target? (Plus, If they do any of these while not sneaking, they will wake up as normal. ) Whether sleeping npcs react or not to these things, they are not actions I envision people actually doing while seriously playing the game as they serve no function. The only reason I could see why one would, is just to mess around/push the boundaries of the mod.
Say, in a world where I could implement a fix with no impact to performance, would it actually change how anyone plays the game? I don't think so. Player aren't doing those actions and then still won't do those actions.
Any change to make the fix dynamic could make it script heavy. The downsides outweigh what little you would gain.
I assumed only what I got from reading the description:
Sleeping NPCs will now only react to the player or enemy NPCs, not Detection Events. A successful sneak kill or vampire drain on a nearby NPC won’t wake up other sleeping NPCs. As in vanilla, they can still wake up if:
You move too quickly near them
You aren’t sneaking
You fail to kill an ally with a sneak attack
This fix brings more consistency and realism to how sleeping NPCs behave
I've highlighted the misleading parts. This description, coupled with the title of being a fix, led me to misunderstand, as you pointed out.
Vanilla setting doesn't allow you to do parkour near sleeping npcs with 15 Sneak skill and no perks, or swing weapons without them immediately detecting you, in fact not even the Invisibility spell allows the weapon swinging part to go unnoticed. Don't get me wrong, it's your mod and you can do whatever you feel like with it, without having to justify anything to anyone. What I am pointing however, is that the description can be improved ;)
Edit: I hope you do not view my criticism as ill intent, or some childish display of entitlement. I tent to venture only in the bounds of constructive criticism and not go beyond that.
91 comments
1. Turn off "ENB/Particle Light" Detection.
- A lot of new texture/mesh mods add aesthetic lights to weapons, armor, jewelry etc..
- Normally, these lights aren't detected by NPCs and they are purely aesthetic. But CS and ENB have plugins/settings that make NPCs detect them and are often enabled by default.
- For stealth-based playthroughs, I recommend disabling them.
- For CS, you can disable the "Particle Light Detection" setting in the light limit fix menu.
- In ENB, it's a from .dll plugin so check for something like "ENB light detection" in your mod manager.
For instance, I had a mod installed that made Staves glow via enb light. Because I also had immersive equipment display installed, when I just had a staff favorited (not even equipped) I would become instantly detected. Disabling ENB/CS light detection fixed this issue for me.Light Placer "Only needed if using the"
Only needed if using what?
It may have been an older version of the plugin or something. I had a look with xedit and found that it had altered the light record referenced by the candlelight / magelight spell, but on re-install it no longer does.
It looks like to works as intended now.
With mods installed that make light matter more (like raid for instance) having a spell equipped makes sneaking impossible; you end up getting spotted immediately from the other end of a dungeon. You can't even equip illusion spells that were intended to be used while sneaking without being detected. Even if you wait to use them (by keeping your hands down) you will still often get detected immediately upon readying them. In this context, it is very much a fix.
It should be said the sneak light fix offered in the FOMOD is just a pregenerated output from my synthesis patcher, Disable Spell Light Emission. If you use the synthesis patcher instead of the the pregenerated output, (which is what I would recommend btw), you can select to limit the fix to just illusion spells for instance.
I didn't plan on expanding this mod as much as I did. It certainly did not need an mcm on the initial release. But the more I added to it, the more I realized it was time for MCM 🤣
Thanks for the update too!
I've done some testing and I found out that Sleeping NPC Detection Fix disables detection entirely.
Test variables:
Skyrim v1.6.1170; Req. installed (latest versions); New game; Sneak tested at default 15 and after that at 0 (set through console);
Tests conclusions:
- stealth walking/running/jumping has no effect, you can literally jump on them repeatedly without any consequence.
- normal/power attacks go completely unnoticed unless it directly hits an NPC, you can play tennis with all the clutter items around them and they won't even budge.
- casting spells does nothing, you can set the entire house on fire without anyone noticing as long as you don't target them directly.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea, detection is turned OFF completely while NPCs are sleeping and the player is in sneak mode.
I decided not to post this in the bug section because there is a slight chance I misunderstood the description and could run into the "It's not a bug, it's a feature" conundrum. Feel free to move it there yourself otherwise.
It's one of those things where you are better off if you don't think about it too much.
Sleep detection gets completely messed up by any game setting changes. Your options with it are either to have it be over-detecting (where anything you do wakes them up) or under-detecting as is in my mod. I prefer the latter.
The middle ground, "just right", option only exists in vanilla stealth, (and if your using vanilla stealth, you don't really need the fix).Trying to make it more dynamic (as in reacting to jumping, weapon swings, or spells) would be way too script heavy and wouldn't work responsively.In the future, I might add an actual<GetMovementSpeed(PlayerRef) condition and/or a >GetDistance(PlayerRef) to it as well (as that would be negligible-performance wise) but that would be the furthest I'd be willing go. And then it would still be very binary going On/Off if conditions are met, not a dynamic formula thing.
EDIT: I think them not reacting to spells or jumping is just vanilla behavior as well. See the gif below where I had my mod disabled.
The lack of reaction to jumping directly on them was present when I artificially increased sneak to ~100 and added a few perks: Stealth, Muffled Movement and Silence. In comparison you cannot do this without Silence perk at any skill level, and with your mod active, you can do it with 0 Sneak skill and no perks at all.
The idea is great, there really should be a mechanic that allows some way to perform silent kills, however this approach is more like a cheat than anything else, it disables any chance of being detected (unless you purposely exit sneak, which makes no sense), removing all of the suspense and sense of achievement from the action.
The idea is to return vanilla behavior to some stealth mechanics that become oversensitive as a side effect of stealth mods.
If you prefer one of the modded mechanics, don't install the fix for it.
Edit:
At the end of the day, a lot of these are not things people will run into during normal gameplay. Who, while sneaking, jumps on an npc or swings their weapon against a wall or casts spells against no target? (Plus, If they do any of these while not sneaking, they will wake up as normal. ) Whether sleeping npcs react or not to these things, they are not actions I envision people actually doing while seriously playing the game as they serve no function. The only reason I could see why one would, is just to mess around/push the boundaries of the mod.
Say, in a world where I could implement a fix with no impact to performance, would it actually change how anyone plays the game? I don't think so. Player aren't doing those actions and then still won't do those actions.
Any change to make the fix dynamic could make it script heavy. The downsides outweigh what little you would gain.
I've highlighted the misleading parts. This description, coupled with the title of being a fix, led me to misunderstand, as you pointed out.
Vanilla setting doesn't allow you to do parkour near sleeping npcs with 15 Sneak skill and no perks, or swing weapons without them immediately detecting you, in fact not even the Invisibility spell allows the weapon swinging part to go unnoticed. Don't get me wrong, it's your mod and you can do whatever you feel like with it, without having to justify anything to anyone. What I am pointing however, is that the description can be improved ;)
Edit:
I hope you do not view my criticism as ill intent, or some childish display of entitlement. I tent to venture only in the bounds of constructive criticism and not go beyond that.